StrangeSox

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:39 PM) Oh, I agree. Said it in a previous thread, or possibly this one...I was a foreman on a Jury a few years ago...and it was the saddest experience of my life. Not a single person other than me gave a crap about anything presented in the case...it was annoying. The worst part is knowing that if something was to happen to someone I know, or anyone here, that you'd better hope you get a single juror like me...because it's all you need is one that does care, since I assure you most of them don't. They just want to get home ASAP, and what happens to you matters not.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:30 PM) Y2HH, You have to realize that Im not a Florida citizen, I wont be on the jury and I will never have to apply such a stupid law at a trial. Illinois' law is remarkably similar. They were both probably written with the aid of the NRA.

The whole is greater than that sum of its parts with that one. you're welcome.

Sorry for providing you with a classic line from a classic film!

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:05 PM) Which is defense of life and limb, or however you want to state it, because that is the nature of a forcible felony. Not sure what you are arguing about here. Forcible felony includes carjacking and airplane piracy, which are not necessarily going to cause bodily harm.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) A phone witness isnt going to hold much water in a case like this. And I don't know where these witnesses came from, but the only person with any sort of visual on it seems to be backing Zimmerman, so his story is going to hold a lot more weight than people who heard some stuff. This is some god-awful writing by the local Fox station that started this whole anonymous witness thing: Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman No, he didn't. He said he came upon the fight with Martin on top of Zimmerman. He didn't see who initiated the fight as the headline implies.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:04 PM) I don't know where you are getting this. The Florida law at play here does not alter the fact that you can only act this way in self-defense. It absolutely applies. Just because there is no per se duty to retreat, does not alter the law as perversely as you seem to think. Zimmerman still cannot shoot Martin unless it is in defense of life/limb. or forcible felony

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:01 PM) It's not a simple self defense argument due to that law. In other states you'd be right, but not Florida. Zimmerman's lawyer has said they'll be using a simple self defense claim.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:53 PM) You don't really need much ballistics education to recognize an entry/exit wound...they already know this, reported or not. I don't think anyone is questioning that Martin was shot in the chest.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) A phone witness isnt going to hold much water in a case like this. She's the last person to talk to Trayvon. If she is to be believed, it was literally less than a minute before his death and as he was being approached by Zimmerman. This person is backing that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, hitting him. That part really isn't important if you can't verify who started the confrontation. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon, has every right to defend himself, up to and including deadly force.

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:46 PM) What witnesses are there? There's the anonymous guy who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and ran inside to call 911. There are a couple women who said it was Martin, not Zimmerman, yelling for help and saw Zimmerman was sitting on top of Martin (post-shooting) And there are now vague references to witnesses who saw Martin attack Zimmerman at his truck? I don't believe anyone saw Martin jump Zimmerman from behind. That's Zimmerman's story and the police statements are so vague that you have no idea what the witness statements actually corroborated.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:46 PM) Well, i'd argue the injury itself isn't enough. He'd still have to show what caused it. Trayvon sitting on him punching him in the face. This may have occurred after Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, as Zimmerman claims, or after Trayvon was assaulted by Zimmerman. The evidence that Zimmerman was defending himself is absolutely there. What isn't there is evidence one way or another over who started the altercation, and with the way the law is written, the presumption goes to the only living witness. If Zimmerman had to prove Trayvon attacked him first, it'd be impossible absent someone who witnessed it, and even then eye-witness testimony has serious problems of its own.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:43 PM) Where?! Report I just posted says the opposite. Report you just posted had a sentence saying "much" of his story has been corroborated by witnesses according to the police, who are taking a beating over this thing. But no one has come forward who witnessed the beginning of the confrontation which is the most important aspect. The closest we have are the statements by the girl Trayvon was on the phone with moments before which contradict Zimmerman's story. Her statements do not contradict those of the other witnesses who heard someone shouting for help or who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:41 PM) Whatever the exact events were...the only way that this guy could be charged with murder would be for the Florida stand your ground law to not exist. Thus, either this is what the law writers wanted, or this is collateral damage of a law that is having other positive benefits. No, he could be charged today if the prosecutors wanted. But they would have to clear a hurdle showing that his self-defense claim was not reasonable beyond a reasonable doubt. edit: Volokh's posts touches lightly on the whole cost-benefit analysis of self-defense laws: http://volokh.com/2012/03/24/lethal-self-d...ssor-exception/

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:40 PM) While nobody saw it go down but those two, the witnesses that did talk seem to be backing Zimmerman. Just saying. I don't know if they're making it up or what, but that's what is being reported. Several of the witnesses have explicitly stated that they don't agree with Zimmerman's story.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) And frankly, there's no way the 2 wound up in close proximity unless Martin approached Zimmerman, after the point that Martin was known to be trying to get away from his own phone statements. At some point he gave up the run and decided to turn and act. And from that point...they are both aggressors. To be fair we don't have an actual recording of Martin's call (I bet the NSA does!!!), so we don't know what he said. We only know he was on the phone with her moments before being shot.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:36 PM) He would still has to prove the immunity applies. You can't just shoot someone and scream "IMMUNITY!" and expect the world to just accept your word. It's still his burden to establish that he was using self-defense. Share the link. I'd be interested to see why other people think that wouldn't be the case. It was from prof. Volokh's post: http://volokh.com/2012/03/24/lethal-self-d...ssor-exception/ Zimmerman's wounds are sufficient evidence to claim self-defense.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:36 PM) From what I gather, he had gotten away...and Zimmerman was heading back to his truck when it went down. So...what you just said doesn't add up...he WAS successful in getting away. Where you come up with him failing to outrun...I have no idea, because not a single report shows that. That's Zimmerman's account of the story, not verified facts. It's contradicted by the statement from Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him a minute before he was dead.

I still haven't seen anyone report where, exactly, Trayvon was shot in relation to Zimmerman's truck.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-0...gated-community Witnesses are saying Martin was the aggressor, not just that he struck him. Not exactly. The brief witness statements they bothered to take don't contradict Zimmerman's claims, but they don't explicitly confirm them, either. The witness who say Trayvon on top of Zimmerman also doesn't say who initiated the contact. If Zimmerman had come up to Martin and accosted him, Martin had every right to self-defense.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:25 PM) This is just hilarious. "Foraging for supplies?!". If said supplies weren't theirs, regardless of the surrounding circumstance, it's stealing/looting. I'm sure it was overblown by some, but it still happened, and any attempt to claim it didn't happen at all is revisionist history...not to mention ignorant. But the initial reports of violent looting and shootings were seriously overblown. Frontline went into this on their investigation into the Danzinger Bridge shootings.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:21 PM) . HE has to prove that he felt it reasonably necessary to use deadly force to prevent serious injury or death. The state only has to prove that he killed Martin. I think a reasonable juror could find that it was NOT "reasonably necessary" for a guy to chase after someone (whether or not he initiated an actual fight or not) and shoot him. I don't think that's correct. The statute doesn't provide an affirmative defense but legal immunity. He is presumed to be acting in self-defense if he claims so unless the prosecutors can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not. The two legal-blog articles I posted a page or two ago went into this.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:02 PM) never really happened? i remember watching the news live as it was happening. The extent to which it was covered on TV was seriously overblown. Also hilarious was which groups were "foraging for supplies" and which groups were called "looters."

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 02:45 PM) Not any of them or not all of them? I think I've seen two, neither of which are of the same kid.

FYI those "thug" facebook pictures of Martin that are floating around are not of the same Trayvon Martin. http://www.streetwisepundit.com/wrong-tray...n-facebook.html edit: breitbart's acolytes have sure been full of fail since his death