iamshack

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 07:24 PM) And Garcia...and Granderson Haha...that made me lol

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 07:01 PM) Please keep him in the 2nd or 3rd spot going forward the rest of the year. Yeah, I'd say 3rd, but Alexei seems to like that spot

So what's up with Gordo, boys? Confidence making a huge difference?

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:38 PM) It's like Viciedo is hurt or something .... oh wait Admittedly he is...but that doesn't change the fact that HE NEVER SEEMS TO SHOW IMPROVEMEMT

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:29 PM) If he has value still, that's fine with me. He doesn't.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:20 PM) I like guys like Semien and Beckham probably more than anyone, but they need to be supporting players as not your stars. Garcia has some potential, but there's no one else in the pipeline that projects as an above average player right now on offense. I still have an inkling of hope for Gordon, but yeah, I think you're probably right.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:12 PM) The problem is that this team lacks serious star-caliber players on offense, even if everyone pans out. Gonna have to find some difference makers to add to this offense. Yes it does. It does us little good to get to mediocre in the next few years.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:42 PM) This "blow it all up talk" is beyond ridiculous. We have a young, cheap, championship-caliber rotation in place and for a long time. Big market teams don't go full-rebuild when they already have the hardest part of a team built. That's just f***ing stupid. Obviously building an offense can't be done overnight, but it can be done over the course of 2 offseasons IMO. The key is developing Garcia, Semien, Viciedo, & Phegley next year. That should be the priority. Also, use 2014 to see if Beckham & De Aza can be part of the future core and either lock them up long-terk deals or move them at the deadline. And don't be afraid to make smart free agent signings, especially at positions of need in the organization. I really think Morales could solve our 1B problems on a 3 year deal until Barnum or another candidate is ready. If 2014 goes well with the young guys, then you look to use our financial flexibility to add another key piece or two. There are actually some good 3B that will be free agents prior to the 2015 season. On top of that, guys like Thompson, Jacobs, & Sanchez may be ready to contribute. Point is we don't need to blow it up to rebuild our offense. We just need to be patient with the young hitters we already have, find creative ways to add talent (young non-tender guys with upside, prospects coming off bad years, etc), and be savy buyers in free agency. It won't be easy but it's definitely doable. You're obviously not going to be blowing up the whole pitching staff. But what if Viciedo and Phegley never pan out? What if Beckham and De Aza move on? The problem is you've got to get the pieces from somewhere, and that might take quite a few years...which means the odds of anyone we currently have being of any use at that time fairly low.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:55 PM) I wonder if the Sox might consider front-loading a free agent offer in the first year. The Sox are going to have a lot to spend for 2014 and not much to spend it on, so their #1 target like Choo, Elsbury, Cano or McCann could conceivably get offered something insane like $25M for the first year and then $10M or so for the remaining years, to leave more salary flexibility for when the Sox will be looking more to contend. That's not a half bad idea

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 01:38 PM) #9) Create a Ponzi scheme where I take all of Kyle's money and nobody else's, thus winning Kyle would sniff out your Ponzi scheme immediately...that's like his job and stuff.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 03:33 PM) No definitely -- like I said, maybe the game changed this year. It's just frustrating to see because he gave up a ton of ML talent on reasonable contracts for much less talent in return, and a bunch of money that doesn't look like it can be spent under this CBA. That's all I'm saying. No, I was agreeing with you. I was saying we were the only one really moving significant talent, and if we weren't willing to part with the cash (to consummate a trade such as you are referencing), by default, it wasn't likely to happen this year at all. No one else was really in a position to do so. I've been predicting the pendulum would swing too far in the direction of valuing prospects (in the trade market) the last few years. We've reached the point where it's time to re-evaluate whether acquiring them via trade for veterans is really a worthwhile endeavor anymore. And with teams locking up their young talent early, and limits on the draft and international signings, you start to look for other value (other than financial flexibility) that can be acquired via trade. At one point I was guessing it would be veteran certainty (MLB veterans), but teams are usually very resistant to trade "anyone" from the current MLB roster at the deadline. What this has resulted in is a very illiquid deadline trading market. In theory, that should open up the offseason trade market, which begs the question "Should we have waited until the offseason to target MLB veteran players if we really needed to move Rios and Peavy for development reasons?"

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 03:29 PM) Sure. It's not quite the requirement it is for RF (throwing from right to 3B, the longest throw in the game)...but we've seen enough of Pods, Pierre and DeAza to see what happens when you're lacking in arm strength in LF and CF, too. Lance Johnson would be another example whose arm strength was his biggest defensive flaw in center. Yeah, I get the requirement in rf, but it's not so important in center if the other necessary tools are present.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 03:20 PM) Jacobs, from most reports, doesn't have the required arm strength for CF. Similar to Mitchell in that regard. It's THOMPSON or BUST. Required arm strength for center?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 03:13 PM) The problem with keeping either of these guys is that they were blocking guys who could have a future when they did not. Rios was keeping Garcia in AAA, Peavy was keeping several pitchers from getting a shot. If your goal is to rebuild as fast as possible, your goal is to maximize the value of every asset you have. Keeping Jake Peavy in the rotation and several pitchers in the minors doesn't do that. Keeping Garcia getting minor league at bats similarly does not do that. Stop acting like Peavy and Rios were the only moves that could have been made. They could have traded De Aza, they could have traded another starter. I truly think trying to compete now is a fool's errand. I admit it is the much tougher road to take. I'd have tried to trade a few guys, and if nothing of value was being offered, then I'd have blown the whole thing to smithereens. We seem to want to do that, but only without making the required commitment to sucking over the next few years.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 03:04 PM) Or we can simply invest into Pacific Rim 2, the movie....creating diversified revenue streams which we can leverage later down the line. In all seriousness, though...would it really hurt to hire an extra hitting instructor to work with Hawkins? How about opening a Sox Academy in Venezuela or Brazil? In China or India, etc. We need to get out in front of the curve SOMEWHERE. Heck, open a DON COOPER TRAINING ACADEMY for all of our minor league pitching personnel...more advanced and minor league scouts, more regional and international scouts on the June Draft beat, no more Jerry Krause Experiments. I actually posted something along these lines several months ago...we could certainly increase our investment in coaching/instruction...they seem to have a disproportionate amount of influence relative to their paychecks.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 03:04 PM) They haven't done it this year, but they've done it in the past. Maybe teams decided to stop being willing to take money for prospects starting this year, but reports of the Pirates being frustrated with the Sox not being willing to part with any cash seem to suggest otherwise. Again, Beltran trade, Wandy trade, Dempster trade -- there are precedents for this every year except (admittedly) this year. But there really were no trades of significance except for ours for the most part, so that effectively negates this year from the sample

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 02:58 PM) But there is legitimately no obvious way that they were going to translate "Spending more money" into additional talent beyond the returns they got. There's a reason why literally zero teams did what you're insisting the Sox should have done - pick up more money for one of these guys to get a top flight prospect added...because no teams are doing that. Then you hold the player(s)! The two guys they traded were basically earning their paychecks. If your goal is to compete in the near-term, you hold your performing and over performing assets and trade or dump the underperforming assets. If the goal was to compete in the near term, they should have been trading the underperforming assets, subsidized with cash, in an attempt to get back prospects who could even out the losses you were taking on the underperforming assets. Admittedly, that is much more difficult. These are all reasons why I would have traded Sale. You either trade him and hold your performing assets in the hope that you can bring back even more over performing assets than he was, and hope to compete next year, or you blow the whole thing to s***, including Sale, and hope to come back with a vengeance in '16/'17 forward...

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 02:32 PM) I'd really like to know what you think the plan should be . Not happy with the return for Rios and you say we already have a good fielding SS . So we're supposed to keep the old expensive guys for what reason exactly ? I've read a lot of informed fans opinions on here and SSS and the consensus here varied a bit from the consensus there about what we should get for Rios. Perhaps you should read this and the comments section .http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/8/9/4604770/alex-rios-white-sox-rangers-waiver-trade-rumors . Most there thought Rios for the cash was good. One guy got most of the heat for saying Sox should get something and even he said a MI prospect would be good enough. There are plenty of areas for the Sox to spend including upgrading scouts in specific areas like the Pacific Rim. Scouting and development are areas we need some improvements. You're acting like everything must be accomplised all at once. A piece here a piece there , upgrade the talent in the minors and the majors. Make a trade or 2 for need . Use talent received or already on the roster for trades. It might take 2-3 years . We may be stuck being crap a while who knows . Some talent is better than no talent while also giving yourself financial flexibility to upgrade the organization as a whole. Keeping over 30's waiting for them to get injured or decline in skills on a losing team is worth nothing and accomplishes nothing. You should have kept reading. The plan should be to have a plan. I'm not sure what Hahn's is. But he's clearing money when there's a very weak FA class, which was alluded to in Jim's article you keep linking to. There are caps on the draft and international signings. There simply is nowhere to spend all this money in the immediate term. Accepting that, and looking at our available resources, it becomes clear that we do not have the talent in-house, nor the supply in the open market to drastically improve anytime soon. If you accept that, then what we should do is what the team across town is doing - converting current resources to future resources. The goal is build an organization that can challenge for championships consistently.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 02:02 PM) With all due respect, Rios is a different kind of cat. Being that Stone said he's loafed since he got to Chicago and EVERYBODY in baseball knows it (scouts), I'd bet Jerry would rather be tied down and whipped than pay Rios' salary for another team. I bet it killed him to pay $1 million. I think the Sox got a great deal. They got a guy ready for the bigs at 22 and only had to pay $1 million? Success. You can't judge Hahn on a guy like Rios. s***, Rios didn't make Hahn's job any easier when Robin had to yank him from a game during a period of time TONS of scouts were in the stands to assess Rios. Bye bye Alex. Don't blame Hahn. Oh enough. You've proven you cannot be anything close to objective when it comes to Rios.

How about we tell LAA that we'll take Pujols' contract but they've got to include Mike Trout

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 01:59 PM) Right, the guys that the Dodgers and Cubs keep gobbling up by taking insane risks. The problem is that for every Yasiel Puig or Yu Darvish, there's a Gerardo Concepcion, Kaz Matsui, Miguel Gonzalez, etc. A Dayan Viciedo....oopsie

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 01:56 PM) Sure they did, in moving Durham for Adkins to clear the way for Harris, James Baldwin, Sandy Alomar, Kenny Lofton (now you can argue Rios was much closer to his prime, but his contract was still a bad one to some)....Howry for Frank Francisco, Contreras, Linebrink, MacDougal, in more recent years...trading a Jim Thome down the stretch to the Dodgers, for example. You're right in the sense that they weren't trading productive, fairly close to their prime players and opening up spots where there wasn't an "heir-apparent" to slot right in. They got a very nice return for Jason Frasor, for example... In the end, we're still feeling the bite from all those guys like Swisher, Javy, Gio, Hudson and Edwin Jackson going out the door without a significant piece coming back for any of them to replenish the talent in the major or minor league systems. The Zach Stewart and Molina debacles sting, as well. (Although you can conversely argue we were quite lucky/fortunate to get out from under the Santos deal....and that's a trade that meets your qualifications, trading major league talent for younger/cheaper/potentially better in Addison Reed). I'm talking about cutting back the projected payroll to a Marlins level for the upcoming year.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) Except they've never done this in the last 30 years, as an approach. It's frustrating to watch the Cubs or the Dodgers amass talent in this way...but the White Sox are highly unlikely to change course right now. The fact of the matter is that DET is head and shoulders above the rest of the AL Central and you're still going to have a VERY difficult time getting Top 1-2-3 prospects back from other organizations even if you eat a ton of salary. The best young player the Marlins got from the massive offseason Blue Jays trade was Hechavaria, for example. And yet this Garcia kid might turn out to be a lot better player in the end. But they also never reallocated resources away from the MLB team like they just did, at least not in the last decade or so.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 01:46 PM) Just because Keith Law says it doesn't make it so. This guy has comparable numbers to a bunch of people who are getting penciled in as starting shortstops. He's very young, he's been pushed up aggressively, he supposedly has really solid fielding tools, and he has a real solid speed game. I'd say there's a decent chance he looks like a solid player in a year or two, and a decent chance he's a utility guy. I'll take that, there's some real upside here. Well he knows a hell of a lot more than you have learned in the last 2 hours and have convinced yourself so you can sleep at night.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 01:40 PM) It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years.