iamshack

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 02:28 PM) Bernsrein mentioning the Sox and salary cap threshold shows he has absolutely no idea what he is writing about. He thinks it is the NBA. Interestingly enough, he has corrected this and changed it to luxury tax threshold, albeit still doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculous point to make.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 06:24 PM) Stone with another cryptic message about a possible Sox waiver deal. Yeah, I think he and Hawk are sort of readying the fan base for what's to come

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 05:36 PM) Not at all. Get rid of the dead weight, Rios, Dunn, and Ramirez, and the payroll is ~40M. The problem is with the way the FA market is now, you'll just end up with more guys with contracts like we currently have.

Rosenthal suggested we might be willing to move prospects to entice someone to take Rios off our hands...although I don't think this had any basis in reality. Maybe that's where Bernstein is getting this from.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 09:13 AM) I'm way more likely to trade Santiago and Quintana than I am Sale. At least in my mind, you're far less likely to burn yourself doing that. See, this is the one that I wouldn't do, because I don't think you're going to get fair value on the trade market for these guys, especially Quintana. Q is going to hum along and put up productive seasons for us with little or no fanfare, much like Mark did for us for 10 years. Someone would give us something for that, but he just doesn't have the WOW factor that GMs are going to feel comfortable moving high-profile prospects for. Fanbases want exciting players, and a GM is going to get a better reception from the fanbase if he mortgages the future for the exciting player versus the ho-hum player. Now the answer to that is that fans ultimately like winning more than individual players, but all things being equal, fans like exciting more than ho-hum.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:41 AM) When have the A's traded a 7 WAR starter? Their MO has been to trade guys like Quintana and Santiago, not guys like Chris Sale. I'm specifically thinking of Gio.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:39 AM) But the A's have done precisely what wite is saying we should do. And they only trade their cost-controlled guys when they have someone nearly as good waiting in the minors to replace him. The A's have traded numerous young, cost-controlled pitchers for prospects, which they have used to rebuild their organization. They didn't kick the can down the road of mediocrity because of it.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:39 AM) I didn't imply no value, I simply was pointing out that it's not very likely you are going to get a comparable player back, no matter prospect "rankings" or whatever. I said the expected results of that package was 2 regulars, 1 utility player, 1 mid rotation starter, and 1 reliever (I didn't suggest the pitchers word for word, but implied it with the Andre Rienzo/live arm thing). Is that the value you want? With the Felix thing, I even said that there were 6 good players in that deal, just that they have been inconsistent at the MLB level and that I still wouldn't have made the move. Of course, Bogaerts could turn out like Hanley Ramirez, and then the Sox need only one other prospect to turn out to win big time. But my thing is this...it's 2013. You really, really don't think that, if you save up enough, you can buy dress shoes, cufflinks, and a silk shirt and whatever else you need over the next 2 and a half years? Realize that during those years, you will have very busy periods of buying and selling still. This is ASSUMING that your mom doesn't surprise you with a shirt or shoes or whatever that she has made herself. I think it's absolutely crazy to think that you won't have a full suit by 2016. I think you can have a full suit by 2015. What value have the Mariners realized by keeping Felix, other than worse draft position? As to the suit analogy, yeah, you might fill out your wardrobe in 2.5 years, at which point, that fancy suit might be wearing out from you wearing it so much since you don't hardly have anything else. But if you just sell it now, you can use that to fill out quite a bit of your wardrobe RIGHT NOW. Ok, enough of the wardrobe analogy My position is obviously the minority one, and it would carry more risk. I do not dispute that. But I think it also brings quite the possible award. I think these kind of debates are necessary if we're going to make it through the next few years and have anything to discuss around here.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:22 AM) Very rare is the case where a team cannot turn its fortunes around in SIX years. And part of the way you have to go about turning it around is by keeping the cost-controlled players that can contribute in a big way over the next six years. Sale is the best and among the only examples of that on our team. He's the one guy you don't want to move. If you keep doing that, you're just kicking the can down the road constantly (Royals) I don't think I agree with this whatsoever. The A's are not kicking the can down the road right now, are they?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:18 AM) Well of course you can bring in value for Sale. When have I denied that? I just don't believe that to pay off a $20,000 debt you need to sell the $50,000 car. My argument is not "if we get lucky, we can compete." It's "continually add pieces to the organization through many different means, continue to make thrifty and smart signings, trades, and claims, continue to build, and you could get lucky and compete in 2014 or 2015, and you WILL be competing by 2016." I really don't think that's unrealistic at all. You implied it with your post about Felix. The argument isn't paying off a $20k debt by selling a $50k car. I think it's more like owning a $5,000 suit when you only own two other shirts and one pair of pants. Is the fancy suit really helping you at this point? Maybe down the road, when you acquire all the other pieces you need, but not now. Now it's just a ridiculous luxury. I'm not sure you can say we WILL be competitive in any year for certain, given the state of the organization right now. And given the teams we are going to be "competing against," (Boston, Texas, Detroit, Tampa Bay), do you really think we can beat them? We've gone down this road for the last 4-5 years, trying to retool and "compete," and it hasn't worked out. I think it's time to commit to building a new nucleus of young, talented everyday players, and IMHO, trading Sale is the best way to do so.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:13 AM) It's difficult to win the big games when you are battling for the #1 draft pick. Hah, I was thinking back more to last year...

QUOTE (PorkChopExpress @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:01 AM) Assuming Sale is the same or better five years from now, and not injured or exposed as not an ace. I like Sale, but I still have this issue with calling him an ace. An ace is someone like Verlander from the last few years (not necessarily this year). Someone who is capable of shutting down any offense. Sale doesn't give me that confidence yet. Again, he's a number 1-type pitcher, but is he an "ace"? He is almost there, but I think he is still learning. He definitely is putting up ace-like production, but I think he is still learning how to win the really big games.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 07:58 AM) I will agree with you 100% that the minor league system is absolutely terrible and I don't expect any of them to become starters, but acting as if drafting players is the only avenue for adding young players to the system is crazy. Sign DFA'd and non-tendered players, claim others off waivers, sign small free agents, make trades...you can still do all these even without a lot of MLB pieces to sell off. You don't sell Sale because you "don't know when the Sox will compete," which is essentially your argument. That's absolutely absurd. You can build a relatively decent offense in 2 years. If you get lucky, you can compete. You can't simultaneously make the argument that we can add value to the organization by signing DFA'd guys and claiming guys off waivers but not through adding a few stud prospects through trading Sale. Those positions are contradictory. Secondly, my argument is not "I don't know when the Sox will compete." My argument is "we will not compete anytime soon, and thus, Sale is a luxury which we are not in a position to realize the incredible value he brings." Is your argument "if we get lucky, we can compete"? Is that really any better?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 06:16 AM) I suggested Bogaerts, Bradley, Cecchini, Webster, and Ranaudo. Best case scenario, you get 3 regulars and 2 mid to top of the rotation starters. Your expected scenario is a league average shortstop, outfielder, and utility infielder as well as two live arms who you treat no differently than Andre Rienzo. I have posted this a couple times during the deadline. It's worth posting again, even if it did or did not happen. The Mariners reportedly turned down a package to trade Felix to Boston in 2009. They would have gotten... RHP Clay Buchholz RHP Daniel Bard RHP Justin Masterson LHP Nick Hagadone RHP Michael Bowden LHP Felix Doubront OF Josh Reddick SS Yamaico Navarro And if you look, all of those guys were good to great prospects. Most have them have had big impacts in the majors. As of this moment, would you go back and make that trade for Felix? Personally, I would not. Wite, I have seen this post a few times, as you mentioned...the question I would ask, is what have they gained by keeping Felix?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 06:35 AM) It certainly wouldn't stun me if as a 26-27 year old he suddenly put up a 50 HR season. He certainly has the power to do that and it may very well be like a lightswitch for him if he figures out how to stay in that "locked-in" mode for an entire season. It would stun me.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 07:45 AM) With the pitching staff in place it better not take 4 years. If so, Hahn and his group should be gone. That isn't asking very much. Where are these players going to come from? I'm just not seeing it.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 07:44 AM) That's the whole point. He's signed through 2019. 2019. 2019. That is plenty of time to build around him. Build from WHAT? We have s*** in our system. The FA market is going to be littered with "damaged goods." Teams are locking up their good young players early (just as we did with Sale) so they aren't hitting the open market. The guys that do hit the market are doing so because they want a monster contract (how many of those turn out well?) or because they are mediocre and expendable. If you want to keep Sale, you're looking at having to basically build through the draft. Given where we are right now as an organization, that is going to take time. Time that will be wasted with Sale winning 6-7 more games for us a year to put us in 3rd or 4th place instead of 1st or 2nd.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 08:31 PM) Yeah it's weird. The people who want him traded want to get a package around two top prospects. You will literally have no problem getting that 5 seasons from now for that. It's more like 4-5 very good prospects, but at least two of them would have to be like top 20 or 30 prospects in the game. Bradley and Bogaerts were thrown out there as an example, but the package would obviously have to be something you believed would get you off and running on building an exciting young team. The point is to take the strength we have right now, and build around it using an asset that while incredibly valuable, is not particularly useful for our purposes in the immediate future. I'd rather have a team with 3-4 really exciting young mlb-ready players ready to start next season for us, along with a young, solid pitching staff (Quintana/Santiago/Johnson/Danks/Rienzo) as well as some other guys we already have in the system coming through the pipeline in a 1-3 years, so that in '15-'16-'17 you've got a really young, cheap, exciting and talented roster hitting the big leagues. You add the guy that we draft next year into the mix, and you're looking at a ballclub that can really have the potential to be something special in a few years as Detroit is getting older and declining. I think you're really asking a lot to get there with Sale in the mix still.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 08:22 PM) He's signed through 2019... When I say "afford," I mean from a total assets standpoint. Yes, we can afford his contract rather easily, but how long is it going to take us to build a team around him? Where are these position players going to come from? Once we build this team, how long is it going to take to gel? How many years might it take them to win a division? A playoff series? It just seems to me that you're asking for an awful lot of to come together if you expect the MLB club to rebuild (or retool), become competitive, and then be capable of winning playoff series' with Chris still being the guy he is today.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 07:05 PM) An ace pitcher is absolutely part of building sustained success. And te lack of one can definitely prevent sustained success. All I'm saying is he is a luxury we cannot afford. This is like saying I need this Tom Ford suit when I don't have shoes and socks. By the time I get the shoes and socks, I'll have shown off this suit so many times it won't be nearly as valuable to me anymore. But I could trade the suit right now for shoes and socks and other suits that look nice...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 06:21 PM) A barely adequate offense (9th in the AL iirc) worked for the 05 Sox too. It did, but that's just not sustainable...I want to build a program that constantly challenges for a WS title.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 06:10 PM) Hawk has a new favorite person and it's the umpire. He really likes Porter...always compliments him

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 05:58 PM) What did he say tonight? Both Hahn and the announcers have seemed very confident from what I've seen that someone will get moved. He was talking about Garcia and saying he's not coming up until there is a spot for him (in a way that made it seem like that wouldn't be too far in the future)

Stone really sort of cryptically implying over the last couple days he expects some guys to be moved during the waiver period.

Porter off his game thus far tonight