iamshack

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 03:12 PM) Do you really think Viciedo would bring "peak value" right now? Or at any point since we signed him? It's been clear since his first year that he was a project...a project with an incredibly high ceiling, but a project that was going to take one heckuva commitment to get there. That's not something that brings you "peak value". I didn't say he would. Would you rather get what Viciedo is worth now, or what he might be worth when EVERYONE knows he can't hit? And before you jump on me, this is just my opinion, and I am expressing it. I'm not saying this is by any means proven or that it will happen. I am just not a believer in Viciedo, so I'd rather get some value for him before all that value is gone. Just because he is a project doesn't mean we have to hold on to him and pray until it is absolutely clear he is a failed project.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 04:03 PM) I certainly hope not. Dude ought to get at least as long as Beckham has gotten to "Figure it out" in the bigs. Why? Is there nothing to trying to learn from your mistakes? If you could go back now and get peak value for Beckham, would you?

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) Rumor had the Pats willing to trade their #27 & 31 picks to move up in to the 10 range. I'd love if KC made that deal with them at 11. Really? I would think it would cost a bit more than that to move up 16 spots in the first round.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 02:53 PM) If we were only going to wait "a bit" longer on him then it's criminal that he's not in Charlotte this year. I don't think my opinion is shared by the organization.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) So lets just say for the sake of argument that Viciedo goes bats*** crazy and hits .400 in May with 8 HR's. Still not worth the wait? If he is honestly doing that against righties and lefties and not just in favorable matchups, then obviously you've got to wait on him a bit longer...I certainly know I could be wrong about him.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:46 PM) What's the best team in our division? The Detroit Tigers. What are they averaging in terms of runs per game? 3.3. How many times have they scored more than 5 runs? ONCE. They have Avila, Austin Jackson (playing very well this year), Cabrera, Fielder, Boesch, Peralta, Delmon Young, Raburn...on paper, coming into the year, a consensus TOP 3 offensive line-up in the American League, right? They're in the process of possibly losing yet another game to the Mariners at home. What does all this mean? It's early. And that line-up probably misses one single element, Victor Martinez, more than anyone ever could have ever realized. And it's probably still going to come down to pitching and clutch hitting, as it did with the Tigers when they were superhot the final 2 months of 2011. I'm merely looking at this from an asset optimization standpoint. It has absolutely nothing to do with yesterday or the Tigers. Personally, I am not high on Viciedo. That's all I mean to convey.

QUOTE (Brian @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:22 PM) Hi guys. Surgery went well Monday. Recovery is a pai . Tubes being removes so getting more comfy. Hope to leave hospital sat. Congrats, Brian. Glad to hear everything went well!

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 11:30 AM) But what's the point? Viciedo's value is not much higher around baseball AT THIS EXACT MOMENT than Gordon Beckham or Brent Morel. He was never a consensus Top 25 player, like a Brandon Wood. Did you notice how badly Mike Moustakas looked with the Royals for MOST of his rookie season? We should have this debate about Viciedo every game he struggles...? We don't have a single hitter in the minors under age 25 capable of putting up the numbers Dayan could put up. We're not going to be able to trade Dayan for Carlos Quentin 2 because young hitters like that are being WAY overvalued by opposing GM's. Just look at the crazy bidding wars for Cespedes and Jorge Soler, for example. Everyone says how easy it is to find slugging corner outfielders or 1B/DH types but it's JUST NOT THAT EASY or every team in baseball would be stocked with sluggers at LF/RF/3B/1B/DH. That's just not the case in baseball anymore. No team in baseball can say that. Even the Rangers have Mitch Moreland playing regularly, and he's never going to be confused with Dayan Viciedo's talent upside. If you do as I said, which is protect him like Ozzie did, exposing him to only the most favorable matchups, let him get on a little roll, and then deal him to a team with a 3b prospect that is blocked or something, I think you might be able to get more value out of him than he is to us.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:19 PM) As much as watching a kid in your neighborhood is "stalking" then I guess creating a presence in your neighborhood that you're armed and ready to defend yourself is "vigilantism," so sure. Fine, call it that...

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:19 PM) Have you heard of someone who has an "in between bat" before? Have you noticed him lunging and jamming himself? Have you seen him hitting at the major league or minor league level last year when he was going good? The ball just jumps off his bat. So, at age 23, he's simply lost the ability to hit? His bat speed's suspect? Nonsense. Viciedo's fishing for pitches outside of the zone and not laying off high fastballs. He's also striking out on offspeed pitches, usually balls on the outside part of the plate. If you believe he won't ever get that fixed, then there's ZERO ZERO ZERO hope for Beckham and Morel, so we might as well trade them, too. Because we've only given Beckham 3+ years to find himself....but less than one month of at-bats (he's not even qualified for any league leader stats) allows us all to play Billy Beane or KW? Beckham, Morel and Viciedo are all showing signs of the same problem. They're late on the fastball, and out front or pulling off the offspeed stuff. They're off balance and out of rhythm, and get behind in counts quickly, just like Dunn did 90% of the time last year. When down to 2 strikes, they're expanding the zone and not eliminating the opposing pitcher's best pitch (usually a fastball), so they're either way behind on high fastballs or swinging hopelessly at outside breaking balls ala Juan Uribe or Alexei Ramirez when they're going bad. Well, considering I suggested trading Morel along with him in my very first post in the thread, that might give you an indication. The fact that I also compared him to Juan Uribe might give you additional input as to how I feel. I see Viciedo as a guy who will always swing at too many high fastballs, will always flail away at pitches off the plate, and will always go in and out of funks and hot streaks. It's what I see, and I think he has more value now, before everyone else believes that, than what he will have in 2-3 years. Thus, I would move him. If we could play Lillibridge in LF or CF even, and acquire a nice 3b bat using Viciedo and Morel or others, I'd be perfectly content.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:19 PM) Sure, because you agree with the underlying premise. It also easy to see this as the continued condescension of Kenny Williams that we have seen in many other threads. If you are going to start a topic that a lot of people aren't going to agree with, don't be surprised when they disagree in kind. I don't think any of us have an issue with anyone disagreeing. Disagree all you want. What I am pointing out is the questioning of whether it is worthy to debate or not, and the claims that it was only raised because we lost the game yesterday.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:10 PM) Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to post it. Marty has posted this same thread in many different times and places, why aren't you yelling at him too? Because Marty is actually trying to start a legitimate discussion. Caufield is seeking to chill this discussion with his sarcastic condescension of the topic...three times.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 10:59 AM) We deal with tragic losses daily and continue moving forward because the bigger picture is more important. I don't see how this case differs. If Zimmerman and his fellow neighbors could turn the tide of his neighborhood by being active, by showing an attitude that they're not going to accept the crime, that they will be armed and might act in protection of their life/property, then perhaps the criminals will think twice about what they're doing. As is, criminals are in fear of nothing. They don't fear their victims and they don't fear getting caught because they know, especially with theft/robbery, they'll be back on the streets in no time. Police can't keep up (and again, they're role isn't to prevent crime in the first place) so I'm 100% ok with people like Zimmerman taking an active role in trying to take back their street. So will you just admit that you're in favor of vigilantism instead of trying to couch it in other terms?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 12:06 PM) We have Jake Peavy, and he's a former Cy Young winner and paid like one, so we should trade every young player we have to compete this year. And then we'll lose him after this year, in which case Marty34 might acknowledge we're NOT in win-now mode any longer because our rotation no longer says we're competitive because it has Molina in it. And if Molina fails, that means KW should lose his job now. But putting Molina in the rotation will cause us to struggle for a couple of seasons, so we can't do that. So fire KW again because we don't have any major league-ready starters. You've said this in like three different ways now... Can you either legitimately attempt to participate in an honest discussion about it or just stay out of it?

I am just legitimately down on Viciedo. He looks like Wily Mo Pena or Juan Pierre's bigger brother to me. I would move him before his star fades too much...and I said it the other day in chat in the midst of a winning streak. I don't agree that it's some taboo topic that can only be raised out of frustration after a loss...

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 11:58 AM) We're in first place. Trade the whole team. Punish them for playing better than expected by anyone but Marty34 and Cowley. Punish the entire pitching staff for Hector Santiago's ROOKIE mistakes. Because normally pitchers move all the way from A Ball to the majors in one full minor league season and just throw out an 85-90% save conversion percentage when they've never even been asked to close a game in the minors before. Sure, that sounds logical. Why does the fact that he wants to move him necessarily have to have any correlation to the loss last night, or Hector Santiago?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 11:53 AM) Yeah, Going with effectively a rookie who threw 60 innings in the bullpen last year, 2 guys who tired out after 100 innings last year (one of whom is a ~30 year old who has been cut by 3 teams in the last couple years), and one of the worst "#1" starters in baseball, while letting the most reliable starting pitcher in your rotation walk and fielding trade calls on the others, that's totally not rebuilding. Call it whatever the hell you want...I'd rather trade Wily Mo Pena now while we can still get something of value for him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 10:10 AM) There was an article in the last week about how the seams on a major league baseball are shorter than a minor league ball, so he is having trouble throwing the screwball. How could that be? Wtf are they doing using a different ball? Must be cheaper...

I'd protect him right now and play him during the most favorable matchups, wait for him to hit a few bombs, and then try and move him...I'd even consider moving Morel as well for a stud 3b prospect.

Will their be prizes?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 09:59 AM) This is why the south and west sides are completely lost. The communities have thrown up their hands and relied on the police to deal with the problem. Unfortunately the police are reactionary. They don't prevent crime, they clean up the mess as best they can. I understand that, but which outcome do you think Zimmerman would have preferred? Another house get robbed, or him to have killed an innocent person? Just because one potential outcome isn't satisfactory doesn't mean you choose one that is most likely to be worse, just for the sake of variance.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 09:48 AM) Show a presence of security that the police clearly were not offering? What's the alternative? Stay at home and hope the criminals get bored? Call the cops so they can catch and release the criminals without stopping anything? Secure and protect his own home? Report them and hope that police recognize the trend and continue to increase their patrols? Allow the trained professionals to address the situation? Of all the possible outcomes of a George Zimmerman/suspicious black man confrontation, how many do you think end well? As frustrating as that must have been, there is not anything he could have done that would have significantly improved the situation.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 10:26 AM) I just finished that article. It's a tragedy that an innocent kid got shot, but I can't fault Zimmerman at all for carrying a gun and being proactive about the problems he and his neighbors were having. I'd be fed up. You've watched your neighborhood go to s***. You've watched criminals REPEATEDLY commit crimes with nothing done about it. You know that even if a kid gets picked up he's sent to juvi or given probation or something and is back on the streets days or weeks later. The cops have clearly failed (though really without having a 24/7 presence there's not much they can do). So Zimmerman did what he felt he was obligated to do. Yeah, what is his obligation? He was going to do what, exactly, to change this trend?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 26, 2012 -> 09:54 AM) BTW, for those still interested in this case, Reuters has a very good look at how Zimmerman's life shaped up prior to this event, to the point where you can follow his psyche pretty well about why he'd have done what he did. My only comment is that since you can make it seem like every little escalation makes sense...that's why you can't have people carrying guns everywhere. Thanks for posting that Balta...good read.

QUOTE (mr_genius @ Apr 25, 2012 -> 10:36 AM) 90% of TV is now "reality" shows. I have even noticed "reality" shows that are fake, aka actors going off a script but in a "reality" format. You just noticed this, eh? 90% of them are scripted.