iamshack

Why? Why can't we get a ss? Why not Lowrie at least Kenny? Why another slow-pitch softball player?

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) Thats really not a bad comparison. I don't think were ever going to see Richar hit anywhere close to .340, but I also don't think we will ever see Cano hit that again. Richar will have an OBP heavily weighted by his average, and from the 7 AB's he has taken, he has shown very little plate discipline. I think his plate discipline has been fine. He's faced two pitchers with remarkable control. I'm not sure I've seen him swing at a pitch outside of the zone yet...

I'm not advocating we trade Gio Gonzalez for a career middle-reliever. As for Dye, well, we asked for Okajima for him and the Red Sox at least considered it enough to try to involve a third team. If Okajima would have been brought back for Dye I would have had no problem with that deal whatsoever. I think this thread is getting a little out of hand, in that there isn't much disagreement here. One thing I guess there is to consider is that Saito and Okajima have proven they can be quite effective in this league, so there may be some more options in the Nippon League. Additionally, where is the kid we drafted last year in the second round? He was a closer in college I believe. Any chance he may be ready next season? I'm not giving up on Mac and Aardsma, that's for sure. Aardsma showed me enough at the end of last season, and the beginning of this season, to believe that he can pitch in this league. Jeremy, I suppose you are probably right in that if we do trade for a reliever, we should wait until the offseason. That seems to be when the price drops to reasonable levels, as opposed to the deadline, when many teams are vying for just a few arms.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 05:08 PM) It is a bit fishy. I guess they just didn't want to keep Konerko on the bench three straight days perhaps. Or, Kenny Williams is show casing Mackowiak at 1B for teams interested in him... They were actually talking about Pauly getting today off on Friday when he had that day off as well. Agreed that Mackowiak may be being showcased a bit.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 04:25 PM) Also, to anyone wondering how the Red Sox would get Dye in the lineup 5 times a week, they would platoon him RF with Drew vs. lefties, and plug him into 1B, LF, and DH to give Manny, Youk, and Papi rest. OR, they might feel comfortable putting Papi under the knife now if they acquired Dye instead of waiting until the end of the season (this way he comes back prior to the playoffs healthy) and thus Dye would essentially replace his AB's in the lineup.

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 04:54 PM) I'm not sure the poster's stance was quite that absolute. I mean you always explore the price of useful players when you're talking with a potential trading partner, no? We know for certain that the price for established relievers is quite high. The apparent price for these Houston relievers, most of whom are no better than what we already have, seems to confirm that. If you're suggesting that we discuss veteran relievers in a trade for someone like JD then that's going to be the main piece we receive and return and I think that is somewhat controversial because you're theoretically passing up legit young assets for an established but unspectacular bullpen arm. I haven't heard any of our young pitchers discussed so I don't get the impression that those types of players are on the table. Aside from the fact that good established relievers are extremely and often unreasonably expensive, the problem with such a deal would seem to be that most of the relievers on the market are only signed through the end of the season or at most, through the end of next season. I'm not sure which young pitchers you have in mind but another issue here is that a lot of other GM's are pretty smart. They realize that guys like Phillips, Broadway, and McCullough don't have bright futures in the majors and won't give up much for them. Players like Gio, Egbert, and De Los Santos are very promising and shouldn't be dealt unless we're getting young players who project as starting pitchers or starting position players in return. Again there's an issue as far as how much longer available relief pitchers are signed. As a soon to be free agent on a non-contending team, Mack should obviously be on the block but I haven't heard his name much in trade talks. I don't have any reason to believe that he's nearly as valuable as Wiggington regardless of whether or not he should bring as much value. The poster's stance was the following: "Dude, that's just it... he's already made moves for BP... he's moved the pieces you move for bullpen, and got a bunch of castoff bulls***. You just don't trade for middle relief, plain and simple. You want prospects? Get a starter... worst case scenario he works out in the bullpen. I know its funny to think back to a philosophy that Kenny has been burned on before, but you "just don't trade for relievers" despite what level they are on. Do you draft a reliever? Royce Ring anyone? Do you trade for a reliever? Billy Koch anyone? I'm just incredibly against making moves for relievers, or wasting scout time looking at them." Are you still sure it wasn't that absolute? Jeremy, no one is advocating that we trade Jon Garland for two bullpen arms. As some other people have pointed out, we probably only need 1, or possibly 2 for next year anyways. But given the sky-high asking price for any prospect worth a damn right now, I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to reign in we know can at least be somewhat dependable next year. Believe me, if our 08' starting shortstop can be had for Jermaine, by all means, let's go get him. Worry about the relievers later. But from everything that has been printed and all that Kenny has said, we really chose the wrong market to be sellers in. While the price of relievers is high, the price of talented prospects is higher. And given the fact that Kenny is not blowing up this team for next season, any attempts he makes at filling holes is better than merely adding organizational depth at this point. Add the depth through trades when he decides to blow the whole thing up, but not now.

QUOTE(kman @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 03:50 PM) I was out of town for the weekend and saw he had 2 hits on Buehrles day. How did he look at the plate over the weekend? How did his hits look, bloopers or line shots? His defense? His two hits were ground balls through the infield. One up the middle, another just past Glaus at third. He looks like he has good plate discipline, looks like he has a clue. But I'm not particularly fond of his stance nor his swing- it's not the prettiest in the world. He does look very solid defensively though, which I was pleasantly surprised by.

Joe Torre.

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 11:04 PM) I'm not sure what you're advocating then. If it's just that we should be open to changing the complexion of the bullpen, that's a pretty uncontroversial view. I'm advocating that we explore the price of other relievers. It was never meant to be a controversial view. It was simply in opposition to the poster who said we should not trade for any relievers whatsoever. The only controversial thing about this entire thread is that posters could criticize Kenny for exploring deals for solid relief arms. We've got some players that do not need to be here next year, and some arms in the minor leagues that will never see the light of day in our rotation. Obviously, they are potential bullpen arms, but if they can be dealt as potential starters before they prove they won't be, they'll hold more value. We can afford to move some guys like that if solid bullpen arms are available. Wite brings up Wigginton. Well guess what? Look who's sitting in our dugout? Rob Mackowiak, putting up a .792 line, who can play both corner OF positions, and possibly both corner INF positions. Are you seriously opposed to moving him and a spect if he could bring a proven pen arm? I'm not...

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 08:38 PM) All Steve is trying to say is paying a high price for relievers is dumb because of how inconsistent relievers are from a year to year basis. Billy Koch was a good closer for the Jays and A's before he got traded for Keith Foulke; Koch then sucked and his career ended. Dustin Hermanson was signed for a $5 mill contract and, while he was oustanding when he pitched, only did pitch about 4 months of the 2 years he was with the Sox. Meanwhile, Damaso Marte was picked up for Matt Guerrier, Bobby Jenks was free, and Cliff Politte was signed to a minor league contract. If you pay a ton for relievers, it's bound to blow up in your face. The Orioles guaranteed about $50-60 million to their bullpen this past offseason, and it's putting up a 4.62 ERA. Why would you trade a legitimate prospect for a reliever, especially given how much work the Sox have ahead of them in turning this franchise around? Who is suggesting we pay a high price for relievers? Has anyone suggested we trade someone of value for relievers? I, for one, certainly don't want to do that. But if you're going to criticize Kenny for putting together a bullpen that couldn't get it done this year, I don't see how you can criticize him for trying to remedy his mistake. No harm in exploring what other teams want.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 08:22 PM) im saying dont waste trade bait on relievers... i think bp is the last thing you worry about when you have to fix so many flawed parts of an organization. but read it any way you want. actually doing some thinking instead of blindly accepting all that KW does might be a neat thing to try for ya. I just don't understand your viewpoint after what we've experienced this season. I don't know how it could be more apparent after what has happened to us this year...

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 07:50 PM) This isn't computing properly for me. The White Sox have 2 rookies hitting well against one the the best pitchers in the MLB. Whoda thunk it? They're just dumb enough to think they can hit him, that's why.

QUOTE(max power @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 07:37 PM) He was safe. Yeah, that was a crappy call...

QUOTE(Brian @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 07:23 PM) I don't think Harry ever took himself as seriously as Hawk does. He did, but probably not by the time Stone joined him in the booth. He and Piersol used to take themselves quite seriously....

QUOTE(Brian @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 07:12 PM) I would love for Stone to smart him off and be sarcastic, making Hawk look bad. I doubt it....Stone put up with Harry for years...I doubt he tries to embarrass the HAWK a roo.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 07:06 PM) I agree, Shines must have fallen asleep to let him go that far from the base. But the rundown part is what pisses me off. Pods is fast, he can steal some bases, he should be able to at least give a little chase there. He just stopped He was trying to force a throw, and it didn't work. He was busting his butt on the hit, then hit the brakes, then started running....have you ever tried to do that? It isn't real easy....anyways, I just wanted to dispel the notion that it was somehow some ridiculously boneheaded play by Podsednik, because it wasn't.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 06:13 PM) Why is Wood a must have? He's hitting .262/.343/.479 in the PCL. For a supposed top prospect that's pretty weak. We're not talking about a Justin Upton type here -- even when Wood was smoking the crap out of the ball with 100 extra basehits, he was still striking out a TON -- last year he K'd in 33% of his at-bats. That's not to say that I wouldn't want Wood, just that he shouldn't be considered "must have" in a deal. For me, getting Kotchman back would be the most important thing in a Konerko deal. Kotchman would ensure that the drop-off of production at first would be minimal. I may overrate Santana a bit but I'd like to have him, too -- perhaps Bud Black leaving has had some type of effect on Santana. I just don't understand why the Sox would balk so easily at a deal headlined by Kotchman and Santana (with presumably two decent but not top prospects also included). You make some good points. Some people I've spoken with have told me that he has never seen a pitch he doesn't like. However, he's still only 22, with some really solid power. And if he can play a solid shortstop, which I hear he can, he's a guy I have to have back in any deal for Konerko. I want nothing to do with Aybar. Rodriguez, another of their ss prospects, has struggled quite a bit this year himself. So I've got to have Wood coming back, along with Kotchman. After that, I'm trying to get anyone who projects to be a #3 starter or so. As for Santana, he suddenly cannot pitch away from Anaheim. Unfortunately for Anaheim, they are the only team that plays in Anaheim.

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 06:59 PM) Anyone mind explaining what happened? Well, one thing that people aren't mentioning....Scottie sees a bouncing ball up the middle and is running hard because he wants to score on a base hit. Razor Shines doesn't exactly put up the stop sign early, and McDonald just alertly throws it over to third immediately. It was just an outstanding play by McDonald, even Glaus was shocked to have the ball thrown over. It wasn't Scottie's fault. If anyone, I blame Shines, although it was more a very heads up play by McDonald than anyone's fault.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 04:43 PM) Dude, that's just it... he's already made moves for BP... he's moved the pieces you move for bullpen, and got a bunch of castoff bulls***. You just don't trade for middle relief, plain and simple. You want prospects? Get a starter... worst case scenario he works out in the bullpen. I know its funny to think back to a philosophy that Kenny has been burned on before, but you "just don't trade for relievers" despite what level they are on. Do you draft a reliever? Royce Ring anyone? Do you trade for a reliever? Billy Koch anyone? I'm just incredibly against making moves for relievers, or wasting scout time looking at them. I disagree. He did try to make bullpen moves, but he tried to do it on the cheap. It didn't work so well. And I agree, I'm not giving up a whole lot to get bullpen help. But we've got a surplus of starters that will never see the light of day in our rotation. No harm in trying to move any of them for some guys that have proven they can get outs out of the pen. No one is advocating that we trade a ton of value for pen help. But I would have no problem with at least exploring what the price might be. With the starting pitching we have (and evidently are willing to pay to hang on to), it would be a damn shame to let a few bullpen guys (or lack thereof), ruin another season and the value of some of these starters.

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 01:36 PM) I didn't love it myself though I'm relieved that we're not opening another huge hole with Tad's departure this way. I agree that the organization seems to criminally underrate Getz. I'm just waiting for Kenny to trade him to a smarter GM for a bag of balls. Haven't we drafted Getz like three times?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 03:47 PM) Fine. Take that into account in the argument as well...so in other words, you weight the value you get back of someone who could help us next year in comparison with the value of the 2 picks. If you don't get what you want, you still don't make the deal. The Sox are sort of in a win-win situation either way; if no one meets their price, the draft picks are ok, if someone does meet their price, then they can take it. Right. Basically what I am saying (and you too, from what I understand), is that if you can get a guy that plays a position of need that you feel pretty comfortable about as a starting contributor next season, you make the deal. Otherwise, you take the picks.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) I don't let Konerko go to the Halos if Wood is not involved. I would have told them bye at that also. I agree. I know they have plans to plug Wood in at 3B, but I've heard he's still very, very capable of playing SS, despite his size. I think if you got Kotchman and Wood back, the immediate returns (at positions where we need them) could be the only thing to make fans ok with losing Pauly. Otherwise, it's probably a move that haunts the organization for a while.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 03:43 PM) Then I will be happy with 2 picks. Here's my simple explanation. With a #1 guy, a Soriano, or a Buehrle...if you're trading them, even as a rent-a-player, you expect a king's ransom in return, because they're that good...but at some level, you do have to deal them, because they should bring back a lot more value than the 2 draft picks. If you're trading a lesser player, or a guy having a bad season, then you weigh what you get in the deal against the draft picks. If what we get is not better than a sandwich and a second, or a sandwich and a late first, then you don't make the deal. Agreed, but you also have to factor in 1 more thing, and that's your timeline. Obviously, if what we hear is correct, Kenny wants to retool rather than rebuild, an important factor is getting someone in return who can contribute next season as opposed to 3 seasons from now.

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 02:52 PM) all they had was a good bullpen? I can name some pretty good starting pitchers + other star players to go along with the bottom 7 of the Twins active roster you named. I can name some pretty good starting pitchers for the White Sox under contract next season, as well as some other star players to go along with the bottom 7 of the White Sox active roster you might name.

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 03:35 PM) That's the way I see it too, but we're apparently deeply in the minority here. It amazes me how Sox fans eat their own, as soon as they're no longer one of their own. All these descriptions of Iguchi, you'd think he was a lifetime .220 hitter (including Japan) who made an error every other game. It's true that he got off to a horrible start at the plate this year. He surely wasn't the only one. Kenny Williams does not get a lifetime pass from me, no matter who tells me he should. If you look at his tenure dispassionately, you'll see his performance lately is reminiscent of the rocky start he had. Even taking the long view that Iguchi will be a 2 or 3 month rental for the Phillies this is not a good trade. You cannot ignore the turn the market has taken. You cannot judge Kenny's trades at this moment on what he or other GM's could have gotten in past years. That's comparing apples to oranges. Unfortunately for us, we chose a really poor time to be a seller at the deadline.