iamshack

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 09:11 PM) The thought of Jones coming in at a discount really doesn't seem realistic to me, what with Boras as his agent. Boras got Magglio a 5 year, $75 mill deal, and there was no guarantee Maggs would ever play again, let alone be a productive player. If Jones gets a discount, it will be at a shade lower than what Boras expects, which is probably 18-20 mill per over 6-7. That said, I figure you're probably looking at a 6 year, $102 mill for Jones, give or take a year or some cash. I'm not about to give that to Jones. The question posed wasn't so much whether Jones would come for a discount (I originally suggested a 6/100 deal may be his asking price), but rather, would such a deal for Jones be more beneficial for the club than a 6/90 for Torii Hunter? Or would neither be the best case?

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 03:27 PM) I should point out that Gio was never involved in that fight. It was between Gio's mom and the coach over Gio's brothers playing time and his mom basically used Gio as his bargaining cheap (which was out of Gio's hands) and because of it people assumed negative things about Gio (things that aren't true as the guy is total class). I am hearing Egbert is heading to the AFL. Any word about Gio? I'm hoping he somehow gets a few starts with the big club before season's end...

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 03:24 PM) Ponson's salary was $1 mil for the entire year, and juding by the language in his contract he only gets that while he was on the major league roster (which didn't last long). Lee and Soriano still would have been due about $2.5 mil for the rest of the year when they got them besides the talent, which is 3 or 4 players for the Twins. Considering this is the highest I've seen their payroll in a long time and all of the people getting real money now were home-grown/acquired cheap, I'd lean more towards Pohland. If they actually manage to keep Hunter and/or Satana I'll change my mind, but he's notoriously one of the cheapest owners in the league. I'm sure Ryan contributes, but that still wouldn't explain the total lack of decent free agent signings. Oh no, don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree with you that Pohlad is a cheap bastard. I actually caddied for him about 15 years ago at Butler National in Oakbrook. He was cheap then, I am sure he is cheap now. However, I highly doubt that the 2.5 million or whatever it would cost to fortify the team at the deadline was his doing. I think it has a lot more to do with the Twins falling in love with their prospects ala Bill Stoneman. But let's face it- outside of the obvious goal of fielding a competitive team year in and year out, the overwhelming goal is winning a World Series championship. And the Twins don't do what it takes (obviously, within their power) to give them the best shot at succeeding in the playoffs. I'm not advocating they trade for ARod or Dontrelle Willis or something. But they certainly could add a bat with pop and/or a few bench players at the deadline every now and again to give themselves a better chance. Their payroll precludes them from signing premier free agents. It does not preclude them from adding some key pieces at the deadline.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 02:50 PM) Lee might have worked, I don't remember the exact price, but I don't think it was too steep. However, for Soriano it probably would have cost them Garza and another piece or two, that's an awfully steep price to pay for 2 months. Plus with Dye this year there are still two teams ahead of them and he'd had a pretty rough season before the last couple of weeks before the deadline. I have no doubt they could afford it on paper, but if Pohland doesn't want to add the few extra mil to the payroll there's not a whole lot Ryan can do about it. Sure he can. He can save the money until the deadline instead of bringing in the Sidney Ponson's of the world at the beginning of the season and then releasing them. And I don't think it is so much a case of Pohlad as it is Ryan refusing to take a gamble by relinquishing a prospect or two.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 02:29 PM) Well, the payroll SEVERELY limits your options at the deadline. Teams don't exactly deal cheap options that can help your major league team at that time. Basically everyone available that can help you is going to be a high-priced veteran that is going to be a free agent in the near future. Since the chances of re-signing those guys are slim and most of the time their salary is already pretty high, they simply can't afford to go after those guys. Pohland has NEVER shown the willingness to pay to add someone that could potentially put them over the top like a Freddy Garcia or Carlos Lee. Well, I agree and I disagree. I agree that they often would not be able to resign the players available at the deadline most years. But they certainly could afford to rent a guy. They certainly have the farm system to make such acquisitions. Take Carlos Lee last season. Or Jermaine Dye this season. Or Alfonso Soriano last season. Sure, it might hurt the depth of their system a bit short term, but if it is so strong in the first place, they should be able to take that risk every now and again. Perhaps Lee or Soriano would have put them over the top last season. Or Dye this season (they are still in this thing). They could certainly afford to pay for two months of those players' salaries and then take the picks when those players walk and sustain their system a bit that way (especially if they draft as well as many around here think).

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 02:17 PM) Jones has generally been a better hitter, but I've never been a huge fan. I guess it depends on the price difference. If you can get Hunter for something like 4-56 while Jones is up around 6-100 I'd definitely take the former because of the extra 2 years and 54 mil. If it's closer than that, which it probably will be, I guess I'd grudingly take Jones. As I said though, I'd really hate to make a huge financial commitment to either one, since neither is a consistent difference maker and both appear to be at or near a downward slide. Unfortunately if our plan is to compete in the near future I'm not sure how much of a choice we have, unless we're going to throw a s***load of money at A-Rod when he opts out, and I doubt we could really afford that. As you said, the difference will be nowhere near that huge. In baseball free agency, the "what have you done for me lately" has a very significant effect. Hunter is on pace to set career highs in basically everything but stolen bases. I'm always very skeptical when a guy does that in his free agent year. Jones, on the other hand, is coming off a down year, but has shown the potential to be a superstar in the recent past (what do you mean he isn't capable of being a "difference maker?". He hit 92 home runs in 05-06'). If he can be had at a slight discount because of his down 07', I think the two will be surprising close in what they get both in years and money. And if that turns out to be the case, I take the younger Jones every time. As you said, I am not sure I necessarily love either deal. But do we have a choice?

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 11:30 AM) I agree with the first part, those kind of deals are extremely rare. A lot of things have to go right to get that kind of fleecing. Even if your timing is right and you successfully find the desperate GM that'll overpay, you never know if the guys will develop like you hope. The Twins have produced enough homegrown players to stay competitive despite a mid-range payroll at best. There are 4 All-stars on their roster that came up through their system and several other productive players. That's pretty impressive. While you'd like to see more playoff success if you're a Twins fan, don't you think the payroll had an effect on that? They can't amass the kind of depth that a lot of other teams can because of it. Just look at some of their off-season signings. They're basically forced to add guys like Tony Batista and Sidney Ponson because of their restraints. If things work out on signings like that you get a reasonably productive major leaguer like Shannon Stewart or Luis Castillo. Even someone like a Jermaine Dye is often more than they can afford because Carl Pohland is so cheap. Right now they have 11 players making over $1 mil on their roster and 3 making over $5 mil. The Sox by comparison have 14 and 8 respectively. That makes it kind of hard to hang with some of the other top teams, especially when you often run into a team like the Red Sox or Yankees in the playoffs that can spend twice as much as you can. Well, I give them absolutely ZERO credit for Mauer. They had the first pick, he's a Minnesota native, and they didn't have the money to sign Prior. Basically, they had no other choice but him. As for their payroll and it's affect on their playoff chances, they have never really fortified their team going down the stretch. I understand that their payroll affects that possibility, but I think they have had opportunities to go for it a few times and Terry Ryan has never had the sack. That was evidenced by Santana's frustration at the deadline this season. Eventually, when you don't win playoff series, winning division titles becomes a little hollow. It's never a bad thing, obviously. But when the goal continues to be championships, at least from a competitive standpoint (as opposed to a purely business standpoint), things begin to get a little bit stale.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 28, 2007 -> 11:09 AM) I wouldn't go anywhere near that. Jones has rarely been the hitter that his name recognition suggests he is and his defense has regressed a fair amount. While we could use a .260-type hitter with some power, at that price he doesn't make much sense, especially at the end of the contract. Plus he'll be coming off a Dye-like year at the plate. If it's going to take 5 years and $15 mil+ to get either of them, I'd rather not see us touch them. Well, Jones is two years younger than Hunter, first of all. Secondly, he has been a better hitter over his career. Thirdly, he has actually been pretty solid again defensively this season after regressing the past few years. However, Hunter has also regressed. There is some speculation that Jones' hitting woes may have something to do with his offseason conditioning program. Boras had him whip himself into amazing shape, and it may have affected his mechanics. I don't particularly want either of them at that price; but I would take Jones confidently over Hunter, despite the disparity of their 07' seasons. The question is, put a different way, are we in such a spot that we are forced to acquire one of these center fielders?

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 11:21 PM) If you read my posts, you know I don't think highly of Owens, at all, but I think Jerry could put up similar stats to Patterson, and for 350K. I believe Patterson's 2007 season is about the peak performance you could expect out of Owens, which isn't a bad thing, but if you were going to sign Patterson, a case could be made they have similar skill sets.. Good point. I'll say this: I'll take Patterson at 3/15 over Hunter at 6/90 every day. And I'd probably take Owens at $450k than Patterson at 3/15. The real question for me personally is.....Would I take Andruw Jones at 6/100 over any of the other options?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Aug 26, 2007 -> 03:42 PM) I think you all forget that the Sox are a zero sum operation as an organization. If they Sox were suddenly to start drafting the highest dollar players with every pick, and screw signability, that money would come out of the major league payroll. So which marketable $10 million dollar player are going to trade off and convince the general public that this is a good move, all to draft and sign guys that won't be in the majors for years, if ever. Are you willing to deal Jim Thome or Javy Vazquez for what might happen in 2010, 2011, or so, and still think that people will come to the ballpark and support a smaller payroll until that point? Again the Sox do not draft and develop talent well. I don't know how you can't take that as a critizism of the Williams group, but I guess I have to post it all caps or something to make that clear. The difference is that I understand the effort and our payroll go to the major league side of things. In the Williams time as GM, we have usually been a good team. This is the first time in almost 20 years that we are looking at this bad of a team, so it is hard to say that they have been doing it wrong. Secondly if having such an awesome minor league organization was so easy, why don't all of the other teams do it, and forget all of the high dollar players? I love pointing to two of the most lopsided trades in the last 20 years, and making it seem like those deals happen all of the time. How many of those type of deals really happen? Again, if there were that many completely stupid GMs out there, everyone would be doing those deals. If you are lucky, you see a deal that lopsided every few years. Great post. I cannot stand this nonsense about the Bartolo Colon deal and the Aj Pierzynski deal. Go to other team's message boards, and on EVERY one of them you will find their fans demanding their GM make a deal similar to those two. If the fans know it, you don't think the GM's recognize that? If anything, those two deals and the attention they have continually received has made it far less likely that another will occur. No GM wants to make a deal like that and get fleeced. And if we haven't seen the evidence of that in the last two years, I don't know what we've seen. As for Liriano, the key to his return is that the very pitch that made him so dominant is the same that caused his injury. That slider creates enormous stress on his elbow and obviously caused him to miss this entire season. When he returns, will he attempt to throw it? Will he throw a variation of it? Will he reinjure his arm again and again and again like Kerry Wood? To say he can return to duplicate or even at all closely replicate his 06' success is extraordinarily speculative at the very least. In terms of MichaelAngelosMonkey, he was not trying to claim that the White Sox have not been as lucky as any other team. What he was claiming is that you cannot praise the Twin's success as a skill, and at the same time chalk up all the White Sox' success as luck. Both have received plenty of luck within the last several years. What the Twins have done well over the past several years is put together amazing bullpens and tailor their ballclub to the Humphreydome. They have not produced an amazing number of solid homegrown position players, their success developing starting pitchers has been overstated, and they have continually been exposed in the postseason. Certainly their sustained success in this decade has been admirable, but basically, if things hold true this season, they will have won 1 postseason series while having the best starting pitcher in baseball and one of the best bullpens in baseball for the last 4-5 years. It's great and all that they have won division titles with a lower payroll, but let's not confuse their run with the Oakland A's of the early seventies. I think it's fairly clear that there are several issues within the White Sox organization which need to be addressed. One is certainly international scouting. Another is their refusal to wholeheartedly consider players represented by Scott Boras. Another is their philosophy of drafting low-risk pitchers. However, anyone who has watched baseball for any sustained period of time realizes how quickly things can change, especially when there is a little money that can be spent. Certainly this organization does some things better than they do others; however, I must say I have faith in their overall ability to position this team in a favorable spot for the next several years, despite how putrid the major league team has looked throughout this season.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 27, 2007 -> 09:34 PM) Patterson = BAD I'd take Patterson at 3/15 over Torii at 6/90 every day of the week though

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 22, 2007 -> 10:54 AM) I highly doubt I said that he did but maybe I'm mistaken. I'm just continuing to poke fun at your newfound Schulerholzness.

If Santana nets Pelfrey/Humber/Gomez, we would be better served just keeping Jon. In the real world, Santana nets a HELL of a lot better package than that.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 21, 2007 -> 10:09 AM) Dallas McPherson will also be returning from surgery and seemingly ready to go next season. Oh my, I hope they aren't counting on DM. That would be sort of like us counting on Podsednik and Erstad next season. Oh. Wait.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 21, 2007 -> 07:27 PM) I think so too, like Sirotka, and I'll bet it doesn't make for a popular man with GMs and probably limits his relationship with many of them for obvious reasons. (John Schuerholz used to keep a Giants batting helmet on his desk when he was with the Royals because they'd traded him Vida Blue but didn't clue him in on Blue's drug problem so it shamed him and the organization when it came out and so Schuerholz wanted to remind himself to never deal with whoever was GM of that team at that time. And I think that that attitude is prevelant, rightly so, because you're supposed to share that kind of a thing. It's sort of a gentleman's agreement.) Which is why Gillick came right back and dealt with Kenny again at the deadline? Let's face it, the Phillies made the deal at the Winter Meetings. There was no rush to get the deal done before a deadline or anything. They could have done more homework, and they chose not to. Starting pitchers, especially guys that have a lot of mileage on their arms, can experience an injury at any given time. Unfortunately for Gillick, he got burned. But he also got Freddy at a discount considering his velocity and struggles in mid 06', and probably thought it was a risk worth taking. I highly doubt he has a White Sox helmet sitting on his desk and a Kenny Williams voodoo doll in his top drawer.

I enjoyed how Hawk so inconspicuously mentioned that the people of New England conisder the 67' Red Sox team to be the renaissance of Boston Red Sox baseball again today. He just wanted to make sure Stoney knew that.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 10, 2007 -> 11:47 AM) They should bring in Vin Scully while they're at it. And if the Sox really wanted to get some good publicity going they should fire Mike Murphy and stick Rongey in that time slot 5 days a week, that would create quite the buzz. I think they should bring back Jimmy Piersall and raise Jack Brickhouse and Harry Caray from the dead.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Aug 10, 2007 -> 11:35 PM) ESPN Baseball Tonight had someone on who said that the Cubs actually got Pods. I'm pretty sure the guy was just jumping the gun and didn't understand the waiver claim, but I figure its worth mentioning just in case. It really is too bad Matt Murton would make it through waivers to the Sox cause I would love to pencil him in left field. As I type this another guy on Baseball Tonight claims Connor Jackson was very close to being traded to the White Sox prior to the deadline. They also continued to refer to Kerry Wood as Woods (perhaps he was watching too much of the PGA Championship this afternoon). This was like the Group 4 of the Baseball Tonight crew.

QUOTE(Wanne @ Aug 9, 2007 -> 06:54 PM) Richar was actually a SS when he came up. He'd be a better choice. And he was brutal.

It was mentioned by both Hawk and Stone on Tuesday night that one of the reasons Ripken was able to successfully make the transition from third to short was because the Orioles pitching staff was so outstanding at the time. Their location was so good that Ripken was able to cheat to where such location normally elicits balls in play to and therefore it was not required that he have as much range as otherwise might be the case.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2007 -> 12:13 PM) This is quite far from the truth. Things I love about this Sox team: Danny Richar, Josh Fields, JIM THOME, Paul Konerko, Javier Vazquez, John Danks, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, the possibility of Gavin Floyd becoming a major league starter, Pablo Ozuna (as a bench player), Jermaine Dye, Jermaine Dye's high socks, AJ Pierzynski, AJ's attitidude, BOONE f***ING LOGAN (love that guy), Bobby Jenks (though I'm still in favor of trading him for a king's ransom), Ehren Wasserman (as a ROOGY), the pitching prospects currently at B-Ham (Gio and Egbert are sexy as all hell), DLS, the Cell, Don Cooper, Chris Singleton and Darrin Jackson's random ass comments that make no sense at all, Jerry Reinsdorf, all 3 jerseys (especially the alternate black), the S-O-X logo, Kenny Williams (I tend to defend the guy for whatever reason), the Chicago script, the smiling ghost of Man Soo Lee, CSN's away game HD broadcasts, Luis Terrero's defensive abilities, Matt Thornton, Mike MacDougal's stuff (only when AJ catches him though, with Hall behind the plate opponent's OPS against nearly triples), the possibility of Andy Sisco figuring it out and becoming a big league pitcher again, the pitching depth this organization has accumulated, Harold's silence, Razor Shines, Razor Shines' mustache, Jim Thome's clutch hitting, the possibility of signing Aaron Rowand to a well below market value contract (anything more than $7m [TOPS!] a year would suck), the selection of Nevin Griffin in the 2nd round of this year's draft, somehow signing Kenny Gilbert (very nice indeed), the organizations apparent willingness to throw more money at later round draft picks that are tough signs and Chris Carter's power potential. Umm, 2 Kosher dogs with.

QUOTE(Sonik22 @ Aug 9, 2007 -> 11:52 AM) The Twins announcers are amazing. Didn't one of them pass away? They used to have three guys, two of which were Dick and Herb. I believe Herb passed away prior to this season...

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2007 -> 11:41 AM) I listen to both on a regular basis (M's for King Felix and the Royals for AL Central opponents) and both crews are insanely boring but they don't make me appreciate Hawk anymore. If Hawk were replaced with DJ and Stone took over the color duties I'd enjoy it a whole hell of a lot more. Just because some of the smaller markets have terrible announcers doesn't mean I want to listen to Hawk. Of course where would I go to here stories of random no name '60's Red Sox utility men, Carl Yastrzemski's greatness and Ty Cobb's penmanship? I find myself muting the TV about 8-10 times a game now at least with some stale, generic announcer I could listen to the entire game with cringing, rolling my eyes and vomiting all at the same time. Sucks for you.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2007 -> 11:30 AM) Yeah, you're right. I think Hanley Ramirez is a better fit for this team anyway. How about Garland, Broadway, Anthony Webster and Honel for Ramirez, Olsen and Tankersley? Only if they throw-in MCab.

QUOTE(rangercal @ Aug 8, 2007 -> 11:40 PM) ok wikipedia He's at 35 now.