iamshack

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:00 PM) My point is that there has been no one in the history of major league baseball who has been allowed to pitch over 100 innings at outset of his stint at the MLB level with an era of over 7. If you have a difficult time following that logic, I'm sorry. This has been what I've been trying to argue all along. I'm sorry if it's unclear. Take a peak at former Dodgers prospect, Edwin Jackson, currently pitching for the Devil Rays. He's been knocked around and struggled far more than Floyd, and yet, he looks like he might be figuring things out a bit. Hell, I don't blame the DRays, they have nothing to lose right? Well either do we.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 03:01 PM) Well, then if you say Floyd is Maddux, or Glavin, or Smoltz then by all means start the rest of the year. I personally find him to be more like a better built Carlos Castillo. Its better off he doesn't take the mound. I'm not saying he is them. I'm saying some HOF pitchers have struggled mightily at the beginning of their careers. How would we ever know if their GM's would have thought as you do? Maddux? He should be selling used cars! Glavine? Stocking the shelves at Jewel! Bonderman? Working at Wal-Mart! Smoltz? He'd make a great novelist!

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:52 PM) We have a lot more invested in Contreras than Floyd, but you think throwing Floyd out there is a good idea. Why do you suppose we stuck with Contreras this long? He's been awful for a full year now. He's also 40 years old, not 29 or whatever Mac is. Believe me, I hope Contreras gets it together somehow enough to either be traded without eating his contract or so he can start for us next season. It's become clear that he is only getting worse, not better. After a full year's worth of starts. Not 100 innings over 3 seasons. A full year of consistent starts he has been terrible. But then again, you would have never taken the chance on Contreras in the first place, because in his 170 innings between NY in 04', he posted a 5.5 ERA. Under your theory, we should have cut him loose after 04'.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:45 PM) 4 starts in 2004 3.49 era 4 starts in 2005 10.04 era 11 starts in 2006 7.29 era 2 starts in 2007 10.04 era Looks like he's not learning much. The curve is going the wrong way The point is you have to let them get regular starts to actually learn anything. Not sporadic starts from season to season. In Greg Maddux's first 180 innings as a major league starter, he had an ERA of about 5.5. And his last 150 innings were worse than his first 30 innings. In Jeremy Bonderman's first 360 innings, he had an ERA of about 5.3. In John Smoltz's first 64 innings as a starter, his ERA was 5.48. In Tom Glavine's first 245 innings, he had an ERA at about 4.8. In his first 50 innings, his ERA was 5.54. The point is, young pitchers struggle all the time. And while Floyd has had 100 innings, he's never had consistent innings. He needs to be given the rest of the season to take his lumps, figure some things out, and see if he has a future at this.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) I'm responding to the post that Haegar's control problems are why he went back to Charlotte. He's being replaced with a guy who can't throw a strike to save his life this year. Its also not like Floyd is pinpoint. We have a far more significant amount of money invested in Mac then we do in Haegar at this point. We are not the Yankees. Or the Red Sox. It is imperative that we try to get the players we have invested money in to try and get the ship righted. Especially considering the talent Mac has shown in the past compared to Haeger.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:35 PM) I have never been excited about Gavin Floyd. I did like the trade because I was of the opinion Garcia would be bad and the money saved would be nice and I am a huge Gio fan. I hoped Floyd would be as good as many thought 3 years ago, but was resigned to the bust most now think he really is. Floyd's ERA isn't getting better from when he was 22 or 23, its going higher. If you want to compare Danks to that, you're doing Jon a big disservice. But John's ERA is getting worse from where it was 3 months ago...he has undoubtedly been worse in the last few months than he was in the first few. He only appears to be regressing, and yet he is getting older by the day. I suppose we should give up on him. There is an undoubted learning curve for 99% of major league pitchers, and many simply just need to take their lumps and learn before they can be successful. Floyd has always been in a position where he was pitching for a team in contention, which cannot allow him to get consistent starts and take his lumps. Now, he finally has a chance to get those starts without any real disadvantage to his team because it is out of the race anyways. Just let him do it already.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:32 PM) And he gets replaced on the roster with MacDougal who is averaging a walk an inning this season. Please. Seriously, are you related to Haeger or something? This is getting ridiculous. MacDougal has done things in his major league career that Charlie has NEVER come close to doing.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) Fine. How come Haeger isn't getting a shot? He has only about 30 innings in his career. If everyone who has been as bad as Floyd has been for as long as Floyd has been get the same opportunities, I would have no problem. Do you really think he would get this chance if KW had acquired him for some minor league garbage? Who Floyd was traded for has nothing to do with this at all. I think 90% of Soxtalk realizes the true value in that trade was Gio. The point is we need to see what Floyd does right now so we can either cut him loose or plan on him being part of our future. There is no better time than now.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:22 PM) With Floyd, I am also figuring in his 111 innings with Philadelphia and his career 5.24 ERA in AAA. Saving a couple million on Dye would have been big considering KW is paying the entire bullpen $3.6 million this year. Every dollar saved this year could be used next season. Sandwich picks don't excite me. His poor starts when he was with Philadelphia came when he was 22 and 23....As if a pitcher never struggled at that age. Look at John Danks last 7 starts or so. His ERA during that span is every bit as poor as Floyd's was in a comparable number of innings with Philadelphia, at darn near the same age during 05' and 06'. I am not claiming that Floyd will turn into a great pitcher, in fact, I don't care much for him either. But it would be irresponsible, with where we are as a team ths year, to not give him the opportunity to show us what he is capable of. There simply is no other alternative. If we had Justin Verlander in AAA being blocked by Floyd, I would be in full agreement with you. But we don't. About 6 weeks ago, I remember you being excited about Floyd's progress in Charlotte like several other posters. You've completely changed your mind after two starts? You don't find that shortsighted and impatient?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) This is the best post in history. It's pretty similar to the crap you are arguing right now, which was the entire purpose of his post.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:08 PM) The trade for me would have saved money. The added benefit would be to see if the guy you get back can play. Kind of like whats going on with Richar. We should know right now that Floyd cannot pitch in the major leagues. Why should we know that Floyd cannot pitch in the major leagues but that Wily Mo Pena can play in the major leagues? I cannot believe you are going off of the last 14 innings with this franchise as some sort of indicator that the kid is washed up. Especially considering he pitched against a team his first start hat scored 11 runs off of Jon a few hours before. That is the equivalent of trading for WMP, giving him 30 at bats, and then deciding that he truly did stink and never allowing him to play again. You are not only raking Kenny over the coals for acquiring Floyd, but you were just 3 days ago calling for him to make the exact same kind of deal. Talk about hypocritical. And saving money? That was not a major concern considering that Dye will bring back some compensation as opposed to what was being offered.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 02:00 PM) I never said that. I said put him out there the rest of the year (WMP) and see if he is worthy. You cannot say he has been as awful as Floyd his major league career, and he also has an excuse as he didn't get the minor league time Floyd has had. You wanted to TRADE for a guy and put him out there and "see if he is worthy." Yet you won't give the guy we ALREADY have that chance. Talk about hypocritical. It's the same damn thing. Potential.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:57 PM) But Charlie Haeger, 9 months younger, is what he is. Why don't you address the point that he cannot throw the only pitch he is physically capable of throwing instead of taking one sentence out of context and conveniently eliminating the sentences that immediately followed it?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:56 PM) The fact is, Floyd has not been improving since his debut in 2004 when he gave up 1 run in 7 innings. He's getting worse. The sample size is not enough to show if he is improving or not. For all the people, including yourself, who argued that WMP just needs "everyday at bats" to prove he can hit like he did for the Reds in 05', I don't see how you can say that Floyd has been given a fair shot to show what he is capable of.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) Are you joking? A full run difference in ERA? No, I am not joking. The difference in an ERA of 6 and an ERA of 7 is like the difference between hitting .112 or .147. It doesn't matter because it's not close to good enough. You have absolutely no point whatsoever. Pitchers either get the job done or they don't. Historically, anything over 5 is not good enough. Yet there are plenty of pitchers Gavin's age who struggled initially and managed to turn into solid major league pitchers.

QUOTE(Hideaway Lights @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:48 PM) Over how many innings for Halladay? Not 100. Was it his first 100 innings? No. It's not comparable. Please, let's compare apples to apples. Over 7 ERA. Not over 5, not over 6. Over 7, over that player's first 100+ innings. Find an example. The point is that Gavin Floyd has been given an unprecedented shot here, and I think I'm correct. What's the damn difference between an ERA over 6 and an ERA over 7?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) You said Haeger is what he is. This last post seems to be backing off it. No, you coincidentally ommitted what I stated in the post you quoted. And I repeated it in my response. What's the damn difference? It's a matter of semantics. He is what he is. He's a guy who can't throw THE ONLY PITCH HE HAS. How can he possibly succeed without ANY pitches? He is a failed minor league pitcher who is resorting to a junk pitch THAT HE CANNOT EVEN THROW right now. How more simple could it be? At least with Floyd, there is the spector that he might have a chance, because he is physically capable of throwing pitches that major league hitters could miss. May as well give him the chance to do it. It's absolutely irresponsible to not give him, de minimis, 6 more starts. There is no downside whatsoever.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Aug 2, 2007 -> 08:13 AM) Funny how Floyd needs the opportunity but Haeger, who has AAA Charlotte 2006 numbers about the same as Floyd's 2007 AAA numbers and who has better major league numbers than Floyd, "is what he is." That's more than a little hypocritical. Floyd blew with Philadelphia, went back to AAA and struggled worse than Haeger struggled in AAA this season. Using your logic, Floyd should have been selling cars by now. (Although I do agree he should be selling cars). I said Haeger was a knuckleball pitcher whose knuckleball isn't knuckling right now on a team without a catcher who can catch it. There's a difference between the two: Haeger has 1 pitch. A knuckleball. Which isn't dancing right now, and on the few occasions that it does, he cannot make it appear as though it is a strike. If that pitch does not work, he has absolutely no chance of being successful. He is worthless. At least Gavin Floyd has the physical capabilities to actually have success at this level. Granted, he has not. But he's pitched FOURTEEN innings for this organization. There is not even an argument. None. Whatsoever. He's going to get his chance, it's the only prudent course of action. You don't trade for a guy and then not ever give him his chance. There's just no logic to it whatsoever.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:57 PM) DA and I have both said -- give him a few starts, and see what happens. We've asked, Does "a few" mean "all of them" even if the result is the same same same old s*** over and over? A) You're hanging on Haeger because of Rob Neyer, and you damn well know it. B) Exactly what is the downside to pitching Floyd and seeing what he can do? DA obviously wants him gone now, do you agree? Don't we owe it to ourselves to at least see if the kid will ever amount to anything? You guys claiming that some young pitchers didn't suck for their first several hundred innings and turn out to be great pitchers is flat-out ridiculous. No one here is guaranteeing that he will turn into a stud. But there is no better time to find out than now. And yes, he has the pitches to succeed in this league. He is not Heath Phillips. He has a plus fastball and a plus curveball. C) What if John Danks' first three starts had been like Floyd's last few starts? Would we deem him worthless too? I know he is younger, but 24 and 22 are really not that huge of a difference. Look at Rich Hill. He's 27 and finally putting it togeher. There just is absolutely NO harm whatsoever in letting him pitch out the rest of the season. Allow Egbert and Gio to master AAA before we rush them here, and accept that Haeger is what he is- a kid with no mastery of the knuckleball and on a team without a catcher who can catch it.

QUOTE(Steff @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 02:13 PM) LMAO.. I said that last week and nearly got beheaded! The thing is, no, we didn't have a chance to infuse this team with young talent. We had a chance to deal our only corner OF with power for crap, and our second or third best pitcher for probably two solid prospects. I would rather gamble on us patching some things up and making a run with quality pitching next year, OR dealing Garland this offseason for an attractive package, than selling him off for crap right now, plugging some kid in at ss and praying that this pitching prospect doesn't get injured or suck and actually makes a difference in 2 years. The reality of the situation is we chose the worst time to be sellers or to try and rebuild. The best way to realize the value we have now is to roll with our pitching and try to patch our other problems until the price of quality prospects retreats to reasonable levels again. We just don't have the resources of Boston, or the two New York teams to be making errors on contracts or drafting whomever we want and saying the hell with signability.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 09:42 PM) Another note: Tejada will NEVER play for the White Sox. Aww come on....you can't leave us hanging like that!

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 02:36 AM) If Kenny and Ozzie weren't so stubborn we could have ridded ourselvs of JC about a month and a half ago when he at least had some value. Garland and Vaz's value at this point is not going to get any higher and we sat on both of them instead of getting rid of one them when they're both at peak value. Either of them could have brought in a nice young package of talent but nope they're still both members of the Sox. Dye needed to be dealt, Kenny needed to find the best package possible for him and pull the trigger. This team is in bad, bad shape right now for 08 and we really had a chance to at least infuse the organization with some talent and we did squat. Kenny f***ed up big time. You haven't read anything I have stated before. You're saying the same things as Flash. Trying to force a rebuild when we will receive the least back in quality young players for our veterans. Makes a ton of sense.

QUOTE(Steff @ Aug 1, 2007 -> 10:42 AM) I understand. However his detailed desires have not been made known per his employers request. Sorry if I was not clear in my previous post. I'm thinking he is asking for the same contract Frank got, probably 2/$20, with a third year option at $12 million or something. I say pass.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2007 -> 10:24 PM) I'm probably one of the very few who think Contreras can bounce back from this. But I'd give him a few starts off. I still think this whole smuggling thing is weighing on him. But as the post above says, Gavin Floyd and Charlie Haeger will hardly make you forget Jose Contreras. I agree. Floyd really makes me sick. Oh well, we tried. I honestly wish Cooper would take away all the damn arm angles and just get Jose throwing over the top again. And let him throw the damn forkball every other pitch for all I care.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jul 31, 2007 -> 05:33 PM) Oops. Too bad for him. It's his responsibility to improve this ballclub, and since the alternatives for acquiring talent are limited, when he doesn't come through I'm not making any excuses. I said that a month ago. What other alternatives are there? Signing some players through free agency. Trying to find anythng Jose can do to help this ballclub in any way. Trying to build on a solid pitching staff and improving the bullpen. Best to try and build on our strengths and patch up our weaknesses until the market makes it more prudent to rebuild. But right now it's forcing a square peg in a round hole, and we lose a ton of value if we take .70 cents on the dollar.