iamshack

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 11:11 PM) Someone mentioned this earlier, but what connections have been made with the Dodgers being interested in Garland? Is it just cause we assume Garland's going to go to every west coast team every offseason/trade deadline (I'm just as guilty of this as anyone). I'm confident in saying Garland will get traded this offseason, but I think it will be to a team like the Rockies or Mariners. You're right...I think I may have been confused with Seattle supposedly being enamored with Jon. My mistake. I do know the Dodgers inquired about him this season, but then again, who didn't?

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) Yes, Meloan's their set-up man of the future, and Hu is their SS of the future. They're definitely their marquee prospects along with Kershaw. And they also have Elbert, and LaRoche, and Kemp, and Kershaw, and the list goes on and on and on. They can afford to move along a few for veterans if they'd like. Anyways, it was just an idea. Sorry to get you all contorted.

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 10:38 PM) If the Dodgers trade their marquee prospects, they'll get back a starting pitcher that isn't a year away from free agency (like Blanton). You think Meloan and Hu are marquee prospects for them? They would be for us...but they are merely gravy for the Dodgers.... I agree, they may indeed unload a Kemp and Kershaw as a package for Santana (who is one year away from free agency), but they have plenty of prospects and a supposed attraction to Garland. I guess we'll wait and see.

Here we go again. I knew we would be discussing the legend of Chris Young today sooner or later after last night's home run. Can we just let this die already? Please? How much you think Javy Vazquez could be helping the DBacks this postseason? The guy we got back had a pretty good year this year in his own right. Enough already.

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 09:45 PM) Why would the Dodgers do that? They want to get rid of Furcal in order to get Hu into the lineup and free up some salary. So they could get a veteran starting pitcher? I'm not sure, but this is the organization that supposedly wants to trade some of it's younger pieces to acquire some "veteran talent" for next season. There is actually some logic to acquiring undervalued goods on the marketplace, and if anything is undervalued right now, it's veteran certainty. Believe me, at some point, someone besides Schulerholz is going to realize that the pendulum has swung too far towards cost certainty and start unloading some of their prospects for veteran talent again. Maybe the Dodgers feel now is the time? By all means, they have the farm system to do so...

I really think Kenny hopes Jerry will develop into what Juan Pierre has been and still is. I would hope any talks with Coletti would net us Jonathan Meloan and Chin Lung Hu for Jon Garland...

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that all of Shines' players from Charlotte came up and sucked ass?

QUOTE(fathom @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 09:21 PM) I've been telling people about this story for over a year now, but Razor stuck his neck out for Tracey last year after the beanball incident. Like you mentioned, the young guys from the minor leagues love Razor. However, as we've seen, Ozzie's relationship with those guys hasn't always been picture perfect. Right there, you get a source of some tension that was building up last year. Hopefully, Razor got along good with all the coaches this year, but Steff doesn't seem to think so. I didn't hear of any particular issues with Razor this season. I hope Razor goes on to get another job, and continues to life the healthy lifestyle he did this year. If that were the case, and the reason he was not brought back, I have a difficult time believing he would have been brought up to the big club in the first place...

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Oct 5, 2007 -> 09:02 PM) What were those? They signed Razor to a one year contract. In and of itself that should tell you something but I will spell it out. In addition to thinking they may have needed a slightly different skill set, (quite possibly from a guy who wasn't available last winter but will be this winter?) they know Razor wants to manage. They promoted this guy because he did a good job in the minors, his team was a winner. In addition a 3B coaching job gives a guy more visibility. Lest anyone think the White Sox org. doesn't like Razor Shines, they drafted his son this year as a sign of respect and offered the son a contract, which he turned down to go to college. Technically they are not offering him a new contract since he was only on a one year deal. Saying he was fired is a little strong but so be it. I think they are cutting him loose so he can pursue something he really wants to pursue, in addition to having their eye on someone they've wanted as a longer term fit. God forbid we let some common sense and actual logic get in the way of things... It's nice to know that sometimes we don't all prefer the "trash the organization route."

If Schulerholz let him go, he must not be worth signing....

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Oct 4, 2007 -> 10:56 AM) Umm, because I have been following the White Sox closely since 1970. I get tired of people bringing up scenarios over and over again that have less than a 1% chance of taking place. The Sox are not going to get ARod, sign Bonds, Jones, Hunter or trade for Tejada. If anyone wants o bet on any of those things happening, I'll give them 20-1 odds. If you're not willing to bet $ 100 on that then you must realize that it's not going to happen so why don't why don' we talk about something that may actually happen ? Who pissed in your coffee this morning?

Funny how we all want Hunter but not Jones....as if performances don't drastically change from year to year in this game. Remember, Jones is younger, in better shape physically, and has put up monster seasons before, unlike Torii.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Oct 2, 2007 -> 06:17 PM) I happen to enjoy Bill Maher, but I'm glad not to be like Abraham Lincoln in your book, although you don't know me enough to compare me to either and it's a rather ridiculous knock from you as I was comparing General Managers to General Managers and you have compared me to a comedian and an American President, which is despite the film Man of the Year a lot like comparing apples to oranges. See, I am a funny guy, and I was elected President of SoxTalk, so I can forgive you for the comparison but perhaps you should make a more valid comparison. But on a more serious note, you know that I'm critical of a baseball organization with a history of deserving criticism, like when the guy in your signature talks about duck farts, makes excuses for everybody on the White Sox, fires Tony LaRussa and babbles about "Nintendo Stuff," or when we make terrible scouting decisions, or when we refuse to go over slot, count on Andrew Sisco to be good in our bullpen and sign AJ Pierzynski to a premature, unnecessary extension. I could go on forever, too, with things about ownership (moving to Cable in the 80s being the first, I suppose, leading to the Strike and the White Flag and that monstrosity we called Comiskey Park II), but we'll leave it at that for now. Now what should I be held accountable for? I'm not the person who said that Nick Masset had a great fastball or that Gavin Floyd was still a "top prospect" or that it would be a good idea to compile wild flamethrowers and put them into the bullpen. I don't sit here and slander people. I've never burned down a village. What, pray tell, should I be "accountable" for? I'm not more "unaccountable" for my thoughts here than you but why should I be held accountable for my thoughts unless I'm, say, thinking that the White Sox should be contracted (which, of course, I don't). I just don't understand what you're talking about, so let's try and get this striaght. You don't like the criticism I have of Kenny Williams, which is a criticism I think is right on -- he is more like Bill Bavasi than any of the good-to-great GMs in the game, so I am like Bill Maher. Gotcha. And I take your knock as a badge of honor from the guy who has Ken the Hawk Harrelson in his signature. I don't ever want to be a "homer" except when I'm at the ballpark watching the game and even that is subject to conditions (like when we should lose for Pedro). See, you are entirely missing the point. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I can speak for myself. I'm not claiming the White Sox as an organization are infallible. Nor am I claiming they have not made some poor decisions and had some things blow up in their faces. I didn't care for the Pierzynski extension either. I didn't like signing Darin Erstad last season. I didn't particularly care even for resinging Dye. But the point is not to say that the White Sox are infallible. And the point is not to continuosly and almost monotonously and tediously hammer the organization, especially Kenny Williams for everything that has not gone correctly over his tenure. Believe me, most of the people who post on this forum are avid White Sox fans. We all watch and attend games, and we have a passion for the team that runs deep enough that we actually have a desire to come here and post about the team. So there is no need for YOU to consider yourself as the ultimate conveyor of all things unfortunate or mistake-laden to the rest of the board. WE see it ourselves. We understand it ourselves. And yet, you keep hammering and hammering away as if you are trying to win some election for John Schulerholz for GM of the Century or something. My attitude towards this organization is one of understanding and patience. And I think most fans of Chicago baseball teams have grown to realize that if you don't take that understanding, you will probably go insane or kill yourself. But another reason for that attitude, which I have grown to learn and accept over the past 10-15 years of my life, is that WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS AND THE SITUATION, it's pretty useless and ignorant to spend your days criticizing. You criticized me, Greg, for comparing you to someone else when "I don't know you." However, you sit here and criticize KW, and JR, and the entire organization despite the fact that your actual knowledge of the facts and of the people involved in absolutely miniscule. I understand people have a right to criticize, or to vent or whatever. But I have to laugh when you start comparing Kenny Williams to other GM's when you know jack s*** about any of them. And it boggles my mind when people start to believe that they are all more intelligent than the people that are in place. I guess it boils down to this: Kenny played the game, he has a Stanford education, he's been on the job for several years now. I trust that he will put this organization in the best possible place to win, both today, and in 3 years from now. I acknowledge that he is human and makes mistakes. I acknowledge that his scouts sometimes make mistakes. But what I also acknowledge, and what you apparently FAIL to acknowledge, is that sometimes things happen that are beyond peoples' control. You have bad luck. You have injuries. You have guys that underperform. You have guys that struggle because their mind is elsewhere- dealing with personal problems or something. And when those things happen, sometimes you just have to accept that and move on, instead of ALWAYS looking for someone to blame. Or someone's head to roll. Sometimes stuff just happens and things don't work out. Don't get me wrong, I am not asking anyone, especially not you, to accept sustained failure. But we have not experienced sustained failure, nothing close to it. So I'm going to trust that the man and his staff know what they are doing. Whereas you, fully believe they do not (based on what?), and that perhaps someone as qualified as yourself should be in charge. As for you being accountable, that is the entire point. You are not accountable. And when one is not accountable, it's entirely simple to criticize, to claim you know the correct answers, to be funny, as you say. You can say whatever it is you like because you are not accountable. Under no circumstances will all the errors you have made in the past in your infinite wisdom come back to bite you in the ass. And yet, the reason you are able to constantly spew venom towards the organization is because they are held accountable. Because KW is accountable. He constantly accepts accountability, and acknowledges he has a job to do and if he does not produce results, he will be out of that job. When it comes to myself, I am not accountable on this message board either. However, I temper my opinions and my comments with exactly that knowledge- that hindsight is 20/20, that things happen which are outside of peoples' control, etc. My comments are usually balanced and patient, and I try to be understanding of the things because I realize that I am not privy to 99% of what Kenny is. Therefore, my opinions are unqualified and without scienter. I guess my point in all this, is why put yourself through all the trouble, Greg? If the organization is truly run by a bunch of ignorant fools, why not cut bait and become a full-time Braves fan? You already are a full-time Schulerholz fan. So how much more effort would you really need to expend? Clearly I am not suggesting that as a fan you are not allowed to criticize the organization. But when that is what you solely do, the point of your fandom seems somewhat lost on me.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 2, 2007 -> 12:59 PM) And that is entirely the right perspective on this organization I believe. Things went haywire this year. Even things I thought would work blew up on us. That can not become a trend. Hah, just got a kick out of this...

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Oct 2, 2007 -> 12:40 PM) That would actually make sense for both sides, if the Mets had another SS option. That's one guy who makes the Mets better no matter who they give up, and that's the talent level the Twinkies need to get back for him. Buster Olney suggested something like Reyes/Gomez/Pelfrey for Santana/Bartlett...

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Oct 2, 2007 -> 12:53 PM) Kenny Williams is more Brian Sabean than Bill Bavasi and more Bill Bavasi than Walt Jocketty. And you are more Bill Maher than Abraham Lincoln. You know everything and have something to say about everything. Quite easy when you are not ever held accountable.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Oct 2, 2007 -> 12:13 PM) He's made the playoffs 1 out of 7 years. A lot of teams have done that. I know you will say but most of those teams didn't win, but the playoffs are a crapshoot. You make it, you can win. The GMs job is to get his team into a position to win. Is Walt Jockety a genius because he put together an 83 win team that won in the playoffs, but Terry Ryan or Billy Bean stupid because their teams make the playoffs constantly but don't do anything in them? If you say yes, I disagree. Was it Jim Hendry's doing that the Cubs choked away a WS berth a couple of years ago? Was it KW's will that made a ball go right through Tony G's legs? KW has the most to play with in the AL Central division. He had a golden opportunity to capitalize on it, and make it grow even more, but his stubborness has made the team plummet to depths not seen since Larry Himes was hired to rebuild a broken franchise. BTW, I don't think I'm the only one who finds it odd the Bears cannot find a good QB. In fact, I would bet most people who watch football find it odd that this franchise lines up the crap it lines up behind center every damn week, every damn year. So should we call for Billy Beane's head now then? Walt Jocketty's because he could not even make the playoffs in the weakest division in baseball? Terry Ryan's (I know he has stepped down) because they never won anything with the best pitcher in baseball for the past 3 seasons? Dave Dombrowski because the Tigers collapsed this year even worse than the Sox last year? Omar Minaya because of the collapse? I mean come on. Kenny put together an awesome team last year that ran out of gas. He put together what many of us thought was another very competitive team this season before they just crapped the field. I'm giving him another 2 years at least, and I would only fire him then if the team sucked until then as it has now. I believe in his philosophies, which consider both the present as well as long term of this organization. I know this is not an argument I can win with you DA, so there is no reason for either of us to go back and forth all day. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Oct 1, 2007 -> 10:41 PM) What I don't understand is why 2007 is a fluke year. The White Sox have won the WS exactly 1 time the last 90 years. Is it possible that was the fluke season? Sometimes I think you just woke up from a coma or were born yesterday or just moved back to Chicago after exploring the Arctic for 50 years. I suppose you find it odd that the Bears cannot seem to find a good quarterback either. I understand that Kenny should not get a lifetime pass or anything here, but he brought us the only WS in the last 90 years, as you pointed out. And yet, you are calling for his dismissal 2 seasons removed from that. I just don't understand that. I always thought you should try and reward success, especially after it has been absent for so long...

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Sep 25, 2007 -> 10:20 AM) Would Garland for Furcal/Kershaw be out of the question? Mmmm hmmmm.

Honestly, why does everyone have such a problem with this guy? He can't win no matter what he does...if he pitches like crap, he's a bum, when he pitches outstanding, it's because the rest of the team sucks. What a bunch of bologna. The guy's been pitching this way for more than a year now and it has absolutely nothing to do with the team being terrible this season. You don't pitch at this level for that long without having some sort of idea what you're doing. And the fact that the guy always has to be linked to Babe Ruth, umm, I mean Chris Young, is ridiculous. He didn't make the trade. He didn't negotiate with Kenny and demand Chris Young for Arizona. Stop judging him based on Young's 30 homers and give the guy the credit he deserves for reaching his potential again. Winning 14 games on this team is an absolute miracle. He's averaging about a k per inning with a k/walk ratio of 4/1. Chris Young is gone. GET OVER IT. And Give Javy the credit he deserves for earning his paycheck, unlike the vast majority of players on this team this year.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Sep 21, 2007 -> 10:52 AM) Garland flat out is amongst the best in the AL defensively (imo, he's superior to Buehrle whose also one of the very best in the league). Garland has cat like reflexes and is just a tremendous athlete in general. (I probably sound like hawk). Actually, you sound like Farmio...

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 12:04 PM) I don't think any Sox fans here have said, "I'll trade what KW has done for what Himes has done." But why let that get in the way of your strawman? I love the argument you and Northside have put up: "It's the young people that don't value KW." DA isn't young. "It's the ring! Who cares about the rest? it's the ring! Screw Billy Beane." What about Gillick? "Oh, he been in the game so long, oh, but he's not good. Not like KW." Further: I didn't try to convince you that Minaya is better than KW. I said, "He's on my list of better GMs, and most people would agree." And then you guys say, "A GM does nothing. It's the players!" But with Beane? "No, no, he sucks, what's it all gotten him? Nothing!" Sorry, KW isn't very good, especially not compared to the other GMs on the list I provided earlier. And now we're just going around in circles with nonsense about rings, and when someone confronts you with that, you say, 'Well, Gillick traded for Sweaty Freddy, so bleh! Convince me otherwise!" As if KW has never made a bad trade and in fact has so many terrible, terrible trades under his belt that he should be embarrassed, especially that trade for the wrong player. And why do I care about what KW is compared to other GMs? It's important to the discussion that he isn't that good, and there are so many better men out there than him who could lead us, from the GM offices all over baseball to guys who need work (the Dodgers guy, Podesta, comes to mind). If KW is in charge for the future, we're going to have problems consistently. And what kind of person says, "The goal is to win in October, not to have the strongest farm system or even to win 90+ games every year and go one-and-out in the playoffs." as if it means much to this discussion? It all comes back to being able to supplement your team with internal talent. Kenny Williams is closer to Bill Bavasi than Terry Ryan, that's for sure. Of course, if the Cubs win the World Series next year, Hendry will forever be better than GMs who have never won it like that hack in Oakland, eh? Give me a break. Your arguments are getting worse and worse. The problem with your argument is that you are premising everything on the idea that there is some set criterion by which to judge a GM. There really are not. One with every team is to win a World Series, but certainly that is weighed more or less depending on the individual job. That criteria is weighed more heavily with say, the Yankees or Mets job than the Pirates or Devil Ray job. Certainly building a farm system is important for all teams, but obviously it is more important for some teams than others. It also depends upon the general landscape of the free agent marketplace. Currently, building a farm system is far more important than it has been in probably thirty years. However, as recently as 5-6 years ago, it really meant far less to teams that could support an above-average payroll. Suddenly now, that the free agency market has exploded again it is very important. But you're judging him as if that has been the number one priority all along. Certainly you will argue he should have anticipated that, however. In my mind, for this team, the goal is to try to win championships. I don't care if Kenny trades every one of our prospects away if it results in championships. Granted, doing so would likely not be wise, but I don't see the point in bemoaning the trading of certain prospects or the overall strength of the farm system if Kenny proves he can get the job done in other fashions. There is more than one way to reach the end goal, and I don't particularly care which one he chooses. But to judge him as a poor GM because he hasn't taken the particular route which is currently in vogue is to not see the forest for the trees. Especially when he has proven he could reach the end goal through other means.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 12:01 PM) Personally, I wouldn't want to be locked up to either of them for 6 years, especially at that price (as I think I've said a few times). That's a LOOOONG time to be locked up to two guys that most think will be declining rather shortly (or you could argue in the case of Jones that he has already). That's understandable. What would the next best case be then, assuming it will take that kind of a deal to sign Hunter or Jones?

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Aug 29, 2007 -> 09:33 AM) To me, winning a World Series has a huge amount of luck involved. I think making the playoffs is the measure of a GM. To say that Ryan hasn't had major success is as silly as me writing that KW isn't even mediocre (I'm going to go edit that now....). Everything about baseball has a huge amount of luck involved. Why would "making the playoffs" be the measure of a GM, but not winning a World Series? Isn't the ultimate goal to win the whole thing? I don't doubt that making the playoffs would be a solid business goal, but in terms of the game, the ultimate goal is to win the World Series. Why that should not be a measure of a GM seems foolish to me...

Someone dig out the Chuck Norris thread about Kenny....it seemed like just yesterday we were giggling about what a badass GM he was. It just shocks me that people can look back at everything in hindsight, post hoc, and claim that KW should be fired. As if we all saw this terrible season coming. As if all his moves were immediately thought to be terrible. I certainly agree that he must be accountable for this debacle, but WHY DOES EVERYONE REFUSE TO HOLD THE PLAYERS ACCOUNTABLE?!? At some point, the players have to get the job done, and many, so many of ours just haven't gotten the job done this season. Now we can all point to certain guys and say with reasonable certainty that KW should have anticipated some injuries or drop offs or whatever. But to predict that all of these guys would be this poor? Come on now. That's hinsight 20/20 and pure bs. Not sure how many of you heard the JR interview the other morning, but he mentioned that even Jim Leyland mentioned to him early this season that we would have the best bullpen in the division. Not all of this was forseeable, folks. Not even close...