Jenksismyhero

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ May 4, 2011 -> 11:25 AM) Neither of those statements are contradicted by what Panetta said, but only one of them is supported by it. I'd argue he infers the second, otherwise he would have just said "no." Edit: Sorry, I meant the first statements bmags makes. The second is supported since he affirms that they were waterboarded (among other things). I think he infers the first though, otherwise he could have just said no, waterboarding didn't give us anything useful.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 4, 2011 -> 11:31 AM) This is to Strange Sox: I was just saying that even if there was only 1 person helping Osama in the ISI as long as he was the right person, he could have deceived the govt pretty easily. Osama wasnt really doing anything in that compound, so if the report merely stated: "Extremely conservative muslim family" And they do nothing for the next 4-5 years, why are you going back? Because the compound stuck out like a sore thumb. What other house in the area had 12-18 foot concrete walls topped with barbed wire and manned by guys with guns?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 4, 2011 -> 11:23 AM) Right but even if there was only 1 person in the Pakistana govt helping him, that 1 person knowing could have blown the entire operating. There have been "spies" that have infiltrated the US govt before. If a known murderer was next to West Point but never did anything suspicious, why would he draw any attention? Im pretty sure the US military doesnt go door to door and enter houses just because its close to a military academy. Dude you really gotta start using the quote feature because I can't tell who you're responding to and what position you have. The bolded doesn't make sense because Pakistan DID go door to door and check ID's in that area. They should have known that this gigantic compound (protected by ex Pak military personnel) was of SOME kind of importance. Unless this is your point...then I agree.

QUOTE (bmags @ May 4, 2011 -> 10:54 AM) No, because here are two examples, that dictate two different things: We got the information from the detainees thru waterboarding. The detainees who gave us the information had been waterboarded. Just because they might have been waterboarded, does not dictate that the information came from that means. Both of these statements are accurate given what Panetta said. The question is of degree. We dunno how much or how important that information was, but he confirmed that SOME kind of intel leading to Bin Laden was produced as a result of interrogation techniques that included waterboarding. I'm agreeing with you that we don't know what part it played, i'm just saying it clearly played a part.

QUOTE (bmags @ May 4, 2011 -> 09:06 AM) We knew he was there for "a while" Are you reading the news at all? The planners of this gave it a 60-80% chance that he was there on the day of the mission. They didn't KNOW anything. They suspected that someone important was there, and they guessed it was him, and only since last August.

QUOTE (bmags @ May 4, 2011 -> 09:05 AM) that doesn't clarify whether the detainees had waterboarding done to them or whether the info came thru waterboarding. Nonetheless the idea that this guys name came after torture and we showed up on its doorstep is stupid. That's not clear enough for you? Also, no one is saying the waterboarding led directly to Bin Laden, so I dunno who you're referring to there.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 4, 2011 -> 07:33 AM) Here's Panetta's original quote. With a studder thrown in there it's not exactly clear what he's saying. How about the actual transcript: He had three opportunities to say "waterboarding was not one of the techniques used." But he didn't. Clearly we have no idea to what degree it was used and what it actually produced. And i'm not trying to start up a waterboarding discussion. I was just responding to SS's link of the blogger who was theorizing that it didn't play a part.

Panetta confirmed advanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, produced the intel they needed to find Bin Laden. If it didn't play a part I don't see why he wouldn't have just said so.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 3, 2011 -> 06:18 PM) After reading and watching several reports, I am open to the Pakistanis not knowing he was there. In some ways, it was safer than out in the wilderness. The US had to factor in a military base that close by in the operation. No one really would have suspected he was hiding that close. Now it would be even more believable if it was in a different country than Pakistan. At first I was surprised he wasn't surrounded by more fire power and in a compound with tunnels or some other mean of escaping. But again, that would have attracted more attention. Another thought, if high ranking Pakistan military and government knew, why not build him a compound inside one of their bases? A top secret building could have been arranged as a research facility. I will agree the most likely scenario is some knew and were protecting him, but I am open to the idea that they did not. This would make sense if not for the fact that they (Pak military) routinely checked the area for operatives, literally going door to door checking ID's. They should have known that this compound held a target of some level of importance. That's the extent of the US decision to check this place out - it looked way too big and secure for it to be a nobody.

What the hell does that mean?

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 3, 2011 -> 12:28 PM) Ugh, so it's a joke. Damn it. I was really hoping that they somehow released an actual reenactment using some sort of CGI. I know they were able to watch the fight live, so even though it seemed a little far-fetched, I was hoping that they actually did this. Agreed. I want to see this photo, the video of his "burial" and the video of the fight, if that ever gets released. Perhaps a bit morbid, but this guy has basically become a fictional character the last decade so any real photo or video would be pretty crazy to see.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 3, 2011 -> 11:25 AM) This is must-watch stuff. Says it's private, unfortunately.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 3, 2011 -> 08:46 AM) Wait, the cold war was "normal"? My point in comparing Hitler/WW2 with today was that we will never go back to a post 9/11 world. We will never get rid of homeland security, the TSA, the screenings, etc. Even the cold war, we eventually won and people stopped buying bomb shelters because it we were at "war" with a nation. This isn't a nation. They're random groups of people. I'm not even suggesting that WW2 was somehow less impactful, I'm saying that OBL's actions led to a similarly life-altering change in our society. So to say he's just a nobody small b**** that failed is ridiculous and ignores reality.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 3, 2011 -> 05:38 AM) Jenks, again we will disagree on world. Bin Laden wasn't an issue for most of the world. Narco-terrorism is way more of an issue in South America and Mexico. Bin Laden isn't the biggest problem for Israel. What terrorism did Obama cause in Norway, Sweden, Greenland, Australia? Did Bin Laden commit crimes against Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam? Bin Laden wanted death to Americans. Most of the rest of the world could give a f*** about us. Again, where were the people waving Greek flags in Greece? Where were the celebrations in Turkey? Yemen? Honduras? He was an American problem and we took him out. I believe the celebrations will have a bigger impact here in the US, both positive and negative, than you do. I think they will have a much smaller impact around the rest of the world than you do. My response would be that I bet if you go up to any random person in the world and say Osama Bin Laden, they'd know who he is. If you gave them the name of the highest drug lord in Mexico, they wouldn't have a clue who you were talking about. And I was actually going to post a reply last night using China as an example. How many hundreds of millions did they spend on security for the Olympics? Who caused that? Who started that entire idea that we have to be extremely secure in just about every country in the world when we travel or hold global events? He wasn't the first islamic terrorist, clearly, but he became the most well known the last decade.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:38 PM) First, hes the face of Islamic terrorism because we make him be. Now that he is dead, there will be another face of Islamic terrorism. Killing Osama isnt going to stop the fact that there are people out there that want to kill us. The celebrating may not make a difference, I just think that it doesnt matter, so why take the risk. I guess I know that it makes me morally uneasy, so if Im morally uneasy and I cant see any definitive reason to do it, I tend to not do it. Second, its up to us to create the narrative. I dont like what he did, I dont like that a single American was killed, but in a historical context, Osama is not this super villain that deserves to be in the same breathe as Hitler, Pol Pot or any one else who killed millions. There are plenty of countries where leaders kill hundreds of thousands. The only difference is that Osama killed thousands of Americans. I get it, when 9/11 happened I wanted my pound of flesh, but 10 years later, after watching the fall out of wanting that flesh, I ask myself, in the end was it all worth it. When I dissassociate myself from the emotion, the answers are far more clear, I am glad he is dead, but he is nothing to put on a pedestal. I actually don't agree with the bolded, at least not until we get hit again. But even then Bin Laden will always be remembered as the one that started it all. And it's great that you don't get anything from celebrating his death. So don't do it. But stop pissing on everyone else's parade. As to your second point, he changed the world forever. FOREVER. For the entire world (and Tex, yes it's world here, given the amount of time/energy/money needed for security around the globe these days), not just the US. Hitler was a s***ty murdering tyrant, but after the war things were generally back to normal for most people (in terms of day to day living). Not so after 9/11. Think how much our lives have changed over the last decade. I dunno how you discount this fact so easily. You make this all seem so trivial, when that's just not reality. And lastly, that's great that you can disassociate yourself from the emotion of this. Good for you. Not everyone else thinks that way. And I'm quite confident that history isn't going to do that either.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:27 PM) It just makes you want to not even bother, right? Pretty much.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:16 PM) Hes the #1 terrorist because of the US. Look at the kill totals, Bin Laden is small time. Even Saddam has way more kills than Bin Laden. Who cares if the US govt ranks him 1 or a million, I care about death totals. The reason he was #1, is because he actually had the audacity to take on the crown. I understand what the US did, we made an example of him. You kill one of ours, we kill ten of yours. I get this mentality more than I care to admit, but now that we have him, we need to put him in his real historical context, a lucky b****. With all of his money, with all of his access this was all he could achieve. Hes a failure, unless we make him out to be "THE GREATEST TERRORIST TO EVER LIVE" Wow. I just...I dunno how to respond to this.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:23 PM) I just do not see celebrations like in the US anywhere else in the world. For the WORLD"S #1 Terrorist to be brought to justice, you would think we'd see these crazy street celebrations in Australia, Germany, South Africa, Spain, Pakistan, Brazil, Mexico, Korea, China . . . He was justifiably the #1 face of terrorism in the US, and we should have spend the resources to take him out, but for most of the seven billion people on the planet, he was a criminal who committed a crime against America or worse, a justified freedom fighter. Fine. Change "world" to the "west." Doesn't really alter my point.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:12 PM) Your argument is that there will be terrorists anyways, so who cares what we do. I dont need to respond to it because its flat out nonsense. We all know that our actions can have consequences, and you cant say that there is not a person out there who would otherwise not been a terrorist, but for seeing how America reacted last night. And if there is even a .0000001% chance, than im going to play on the safe side. I can get drunk for no reason, I can shout USA USA for no reason, I can be proud of the US for so many things. I just dont agree with being proud for killing a man, it makes him a myth, it makes him a legend, it puts him in a historical context that he does not deserve. He is no myth, he is no legend, he is just a man, and I dont celebrate the death of men. First, you're completely ignoring the positive consequences of his death. You don't think his death - getting rid of the face of islamic terrorism - isn't going to be a positive? You keep claiming this negative consequence without addressing my point that they're using his death for propaganda anyway, so how does celebrating it going to make much of a difference? When you link me a video that shows people burning the Quran and screaming death to all muslims, then i'll agree with you. That's not a good thing. But people chanting USA because they finally caught the guy responsible for 9/11 isn't going to change anything. Second, I appreciate the fact that you want to minimize the importance of Bin Laden, but that's just not reality man. It's been a decade. He's the most wanted man in the world. That's not legend, that's not a myth, that's a fact. People will remember last night like they remembered 9/11. It was a historic event whether you like it or not.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 2, 2011 -> 09:07 PM) Because its not a huge victory. its a Pyrrhic victory. Osama is a small time b****, he never even killed a 100,000 people. He just happened to kill our people, and when that happens it is natural to want revenge. But revenge does nothing but kill more people. This whole thing started because we all wanted revenge, blood feuds never end well, some one has to be the one who buries the hatchet (how is that for a run of cliches). Are you living in reality? You do know that Bin Laden was the world's number 1 terrorist right? How on earth can you call him a small b**** considering the lives and money he's cost the world over the last 10-12 years?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 2, 2011 -> 08:58 PM) So, what good came from the celebrations? All it may have done is piss people off, there is not one thing that the US concretely gained by going out and celebrating as if we actually won or accomplished something. I can point to a concrete example of why this could not only hurt America's perception, but also could result in more American deaths. What can you point to as a concrete example of how this will help Americans? If you and your friends want to go to a bar and get drunk, good for you. But going out and acting like that, when we know how many innocent people have died at both Osama's and the US's hands because of this nonsense, does nothing more than fuel the flames Ill celebrate when they pull the troops out of Pakistan and Afghanistan, Ill celebrate when they end the War on terror. Until then, we still have men and women out there who are risking their lives, we still have innocent civilians being killed on both sides. Its not over, and until its over, Im not celebrating, because I dont celebrate the death of anyone, I celebrate those who do great things, I wouldnt give Osama the honor of celebrating. Celebrating his death does nothing more than make him out to be more than he ever was. Just stupid person who got lucky, hes no super villain, hes nothing. No you can't. I just showed you how they're recruiting new people and spreading their message simply because of his death. It had nothing to do with our celebration of it. And you don't think celebrating helped people? You don't think that helped the national mood? You don't think that's good news that made people happy, even if for a day? GMAFB man.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ May 2, 2011 -> 08:56 PM) Just because we are dealing with savages like Osama doesn't mean that we need to behave like savages. Fair enough. Then argue morality, civility, pride or something else. Just don't feed me this BS line that we're going to piss more people off when our existence is more than enough.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 2, 2011 -> 08:55 PM) I forgot it is impossible to wake someone who is pretending to be asleep. Agreed!

QUOTE (Tex @ May 2, 2011 -> 08:48 PM) And once again I want to be clear, I'm not saying celebrating is wrong, I believe it was sincere and genuine for most of the people. Different people all react differently. But the extremists sell converts that we are the extremists, that we are the blood thirsty Muslim killers on a holy war and they need to band together to protect themselves from the evil US empire. We looked like it last night. But you realize just his death (among the deaths of any of them) is used for this propoganda anyway right? Here's an example: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/hamas-condemns-ki...-110039788.html Hamas didn't need to see the "blood thirsty" celebrations to spread their recruitment message. His death alone did that. So maybe we shouldn't have killed him because of how it makes us look in the muslim world?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 2, 2011 -> 08:45 PM) If you cant see how this will be used as a terrorist, than there is nothing else to say. In my recruitment video, Id show a picture of dead civilians and then US people cheering and shouting. Propaganda isnt about the truth, its about what I can make the truth Regardless it isnt about the terrorists, its about us. I thought we were better, I thought we came from a nation that feels the suffering of all of those who suffer. Maybe we are no better. But that doesnt mean I cant strike to be better. This proves my point. They make s*** up anyway. We kill their brothers in jihad anyway. You think we're going to win that PR battle? What, are we going to show them how nice we are by giving them a tape of Dancing With the Stars? The solution to your guys' concern is to completely leave them alone. Oh but wait, they'll still come after us because Allah tells them too. Look, in a vaccum, I agree with you guys. But in reality this changes absolutely nothing. Their perspective of us is the exact same as it was 24 hours ago.