JUSTgottaBELIEVE

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 10:28 AM) Sorry man but your fowler, moreland, volquez, and wieters isn't turning the sox into contenders. Volquez has a 5.00+ era and puting up -.4 war this year. Sox would be better running out fulmer tho will probably have growing pains. Moreland isnt going to upgrade the lineup that much. Lets put him to comparison of Melky. Melky has a .292 avg, .343 obp .437 slg, .780 ops, 32 2b, 10 hrs, 71 rbi's, 114 ops+ and 1.8 war vs moreland .242 avg, .312 obp, .451 slg, .762 ops, 21 2b, 22 hrs, 58 rbi's, 98 ops+ and a 1.3 war for their 2016 stats sofar. So ya moreland will give you more homeruns and higher slugging. If the sox were to contend they need a better run producer then moreland. Hes pretty much a lesser version of dunn. Fowler isn't even guaranteed to be a free agent. Still has a mutual option with the cubs for next year. If he were to become a free agent i would imagine a qualifying offer being attached and sox weren't willing to give up a pick last year for him and dont imagine again this offseason. Being that hes a boras client i imagine the cost will be pretty high and sox dont cough up money. Wieters is again a boras client so I imagine boras trying to get as much out of him as possible money wise. He probably will have qualifying offer attached too and again sox didnt want to give up pick last and probably not this year. Plus again the sox dont cough up money. Also dont know how this going to be improved pen looks like. Petricka and Putnam arent going to put the sox over top especially not knowing how healthy they will be. Sox aren't going to throw money at chapman. The 2 biggest parts of the pen in jones and Robertson have blown 16 saves together of the 28 blowns saves from the entire pen that leads the majors. Thats 57% of the blown saves coming from you best options in the pen. Sox have some holes and being in one of the weakest free agent classes is not a good place to be in. Not much in minors to fill the gabs either at the majors or not alot of depth to trade I already laid it out in other threads but I will repeat again here. Here's the lineup that I believe is absolutely a contender. I have already stated that it will cost the White Sox an additional $15-20MM in payroll compared to this season but if JR is truly going for it then these are the types of moves required to make the next step. Projected lineup using their 2016 statistics: 1. Fowler CF (833 OPS, wRC+ 127) 2. Eaton RF (798 OPS, wRC+ 116) 3. Abreu 1B/DH (832 OPS, wRC+ 119) 4. Cabrera LF (780 OPS, wRC+ 107) 5. Frazier 3B (749 OPS, wRC+ 96) 6. Moreland DH/1B (763 OPS, wRC+ 97) 7. Wieters C (701 OPS, wRC+ 84) 8. Lawrie 2B (723 OPS, wRC+ 91) / Saladino 2B (731 OPS, wRC+ 93) 9. Anderson SS (729 OPS, wRC+ 92) You have 1 very good hitter, 2 good hitters, 1 slightly above average hitter, 2 average hitters, 2 slightly below average hitters, and 1 below average hitter. I see no reason why that is anything less than a league average offense. Combine that with 4 starters carrying an ERA under 4, including 2 guys just over 3, and all you need from the #5 starter is a mid to upper 4 ERA rather than the close to 8 they have gotten this season. I also expect a bullpen of Robertson, Jennings, Jones, Putnam, Petricka, Burdi, and ? via trade or FA to be improved from this season.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 11:57 AM) They sure did, at least in 1989 they did. They traded the great Harold Baines at the trade deadline that season and brought in the very young and untested Sammy Sosa, Wilson Alvarez, and they not-so-young Scott Fletcher. Both Sosa and Alvarez would go onto contribute to the 94 win season in 1990, as would a young Ventura, Fernandez, and Frank Thomas. So you see, it's not a hypothetical. It can and has been done before. Now I'll give you it's not common for this to happen, but it can happen, which is the premise for my stance. Which again brings me back to my original point in this whole discussion, which is IF it happens (again), attendance will go up, as it did in 1990. 1. DH Harold Baines was not the best player on the 1989 roster. That would be HOF catcher Carlton Fisk. 2. What you are talking about isn't just trading Chris Sale. If you are trading Chris Sale, you are also trading 3 or 4 of Todd Frazier, Melky Cabrera, David Robertson, Adam Eaton, Jose Quintana, and Jose Abreu. To equate that to 1989, they would be also trading Carlton Fisk, Bobby Thigpen, and Ozzie Guillen in addition to Harold Baines. Unless I am wrong and you are only in favor of moving Chris Sale and no other veterans this offseason?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 11:21 AM) No argument from me, my friend. Again, all I'm saying is simply that attendance will not go down with Sale gone if the Sox were to find a way to have a winning season next year. Nobody expected them to have winning seasons with such young rosters like they had in 1990 and 2000, and yet that's exactly what they went onto have. I have not suggested at all that it is probable it will happen again next year. My only statement is that if it did, then attendance will go up, just as it did in '90 and '00. And I'm saying it's a silly hypothetical because they are not going to improve (in terms of number of wins) year over year by trading 3 or 4 of their best players for prospects, Sale included. Did they trade their best player before the 1990 and 2000 seasons?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 10:18 AM) Lol - will you please pay attention and read what I am saying? I never said the Sox WOULD be better NEXT YEAR by trading Sale. Let me repeat this so it'll sink in this time: I never said the Sox WOULD be better NEXT YEAR by trading Sale. What I did say was in response to a rather strange assertion that attendance would go down next year, no matter what, if Sale is traded. All I said was that would not be the case IF the Sox managed to turn things around next year and have a winning season. And that, of course, is true, because as I've also said, the game is bigger than any one player. So if our winning-starved fan base were to all of a sudden have a winning season drop in on its doorstep next year, the last thing that will happen is for attendance to go down, Sale or no Sale. That's the whole problem with your argument, your "if" statement. I will guarantee the Sox have a worse record next year if they trade Sale and start the rebuilding process this offseason. And if you don't think people come out to watch Chris Sale, then why were so many people upset and disappointed when Sale was a late scratch as a result of his suspension for ripping up the throwback jerseys? They should have been just as satisfied to watch Matt Albers start right? I think the Sox even won that game.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 09:32 AM) Actually, I said no such thing. Go back and read a little bit closer. I never said trading Sale would result in more wins next season. Never said that once. What I said was attendance would not go down with a trade of Sale IF the team turned things around and started playing winning baseball next year. Another poster said attendance was going to go down no matter what in the event Sale was traded, and I simply countered that winning baseball would prevent that from happening. Big difference. Haha ok and how are the White Sox going to be better next year by trading Sale and rebuilding? Your hypothetical situation is 100x more improbable than mine in which they can compete next season with the right signings this offseason.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 09:05 AM) The problem is you can do the same thing with the Royals and Tigers. Strip away KC's fifth starter and they're on a pace for 94 wins and the playoffs despite everything else (tepid offense, Soria, injuries, Yost). Take away Sanchez and Pelfrey, the Tigers suddenly become one of the best teams in baseball despite JD Martinez, Castellanos and Maybin missing time. Neither team has gone 7-20 with an ERA just under 8 in starts by their fifth starter. I imagine the White Sox have gotten the least out of the fifth starter spot than any other team in baseball this year BY FAR.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 08:03 AM) Well, two things: a.) did anyone actually even say that in this thread? and b.) the silliest argument was the one put forth suggesting the additions of Matt Wieters, Edinson Volquez and Mitch Moreland would somehow transform this currently bad team into one that could compete to win the division. Now THAT was SILLY! A) your whole argument with SS2K is based on the notion that trading Sale will result in more wins next season which will lead to an increase in attendence so yes you did actually say it without saying it. If you don't think the Sox will win more games next season by trading Sale then why are you even arguing? B) of course you left out Fowler and I stand by my opinion that these 4 acquisitions plus an improved bullpen absolutely put the Sox in a position to compete next season. Already stated this before but the Sox are 7-20 when Ranaudo/Shields/Danks start. Give me an average starter in place of these dopes and that results in a 13-14 record in those games (not asking for much). Consequently, the team is 6 wins better with just that one move: 76-68 or 3 GB of the wild card. Again, that's just addressing 1 spot on the 25 man roster while leaving the rest untouched.

To think a full rebuild will result in immediate success (I.e. more wins than this season) is one of the sillier arguments I have seen on here in some time. Also, DA and SS2K are absolutely right in that a Sale trade would signal full rebuild to the fans and absolutely negatively impact attendence and overall fan interest next season even if they get a package of Moncada and Benintendi in return. Moncada has struck out in his last 8 at-bats. If that happened in a White Sox uni combined with an OPS in the Carlos Sanchez range over an entire season, which wouldn't be surprising for a kid just getting his feet wet in the big leagues, that's sure to get Sox fans excited and out to the ballpark.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 07:39 PM) Miller is the best left-handed reliever in baseball. He just brought back to Yankees 4 prospects from Cleveland including 2 of their top 3. Iglesias is one of the best( some rate him #1) defensive shortstops in baseball as well as a career .275 hitter. So you are comparing a reliever and a very good defensive shortstop but below average hitter to Sale, Q, Rodon, Abreu, and Eaton? Come on man. At the time those guys were traded, Nava was probably the most accomplished at the MLB level and he was no where near as accomplished as Sale, Q, Eaton, and Abreu are right now. It's not even close.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:57 PM) Boston traded Felix Doubront, Andrew Miller ( who they got for Josh Reddick), Jose Iglesias, Will Middlebrooks, Daniel Nava as well as several veterans as part of a total roster rebuild. It looks like it worked. Nobody is saying you trade the core 6. But you trade from strength and the only strength this team has is young starting pitching. I doubt you are able to trade Sale so he stays. Anderson is too valuable to trade. Abreu stays since his value to Sox may be more than what he returns in a trade. You shop Q, Rodon and even Fulmer to see what the market offers and trade one to fill some holes on the roster. See what Frazier, Melky, Robertson, Jones and Eaton are worth. I think Lawrie and Shields are also not worth trading due to value. Maybe Robertson and Jones are in the same category How were any of those guys in any way comparable to the talent of our core six? It's not even close.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 02:12 PM) I'm pretty sure everybody gets it.. you're trying to hammer home the fact that the Sox are fools for busting up a team with a core that's affordable and controlled.. a core that includes 3 strong top of line starting pitchers, a SS of the future, and two solid offensive players… Also, it's pretty obvious at this point you're just gonna continue to hammer without trying to understand or taking into consideration any other point of view other than your own.. You wanna play fantasy baseball and mix and match players for your contending/core intact 2017 White Sox.. that's fine.. The fact is, other than your core players of Eaton, Abreu, Anderson.. the entire lineup pretty much needs to be addressed…as well as 2 back end starting pitchers, and a bullpen who's only saving grace really, in order to avoid the disaster of 2016, is two guys coming back from season ending injuries and hopefully returning to form… As has been pointed out numerous times, the Sox are in a bind with their "reload".. because of two factors.. a) weak free agent market for the next two seasons b) with attendance in 2016 only averaging less than 1000 more per game over 2015, the very unlikely scenario of any significant increase in payroll… furthermore, even with a moderate jump in payroll, there's no convincing argument out there that the available acquisitions within budget are gonna make any real solid significant impact Either way, there's no guarantee at all than any of the "core" will be traded away… so this whole argument could all be for naught… If there's any one thing I would hope you would take away for all of this .. it's this: a rebuild with your bargaining chips being probably the most premier players available on the market, is something the Sox organization has never been in a position to take advantage of.. "a retool' is something that has been attempted over and over and over again with the same predictable sad, frustrating results 2 months ago I was completely on board with the total rebuild train. However, the emergence of Rodon, better than expected performance of Anderson, and total 180 by Abreu has changed everything. A core that appeared to only consist of 3, has turned into 6 in a matter of months. I mean I always thought Anderson and Rodon would be solid contributors but with the both of them already flashing all star potential at such a young age is something I did not anticipate.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 02:40 PM) In 2013 Boston won the World Series and had Pedroia, Bradley, Bogaerts, Buchholtz and Ortiz. Had two down years but totally rebuilt their roster Through FA, trades and their farm they rebuilt their bullpen, starting pitching, catchers, RF, IB, 3B, LF. What players did they trade as young, talented, and controlled as the core six I mentioned?

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 11:11 AM) I'm convinced you are Kenny Williams. Name one team in the past 10 years that has undertaken a full rebuild with a core as young, talented, and cost controlled as Sale, Q, Rodon, Anderson, Eaton, and Abreu.

QUOTE (Sleepy Harold @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 12:37 PM) Seriously, I can't think of a single poster who's been more gung-ho on the "retool train" because, like every other year, we're only a few pieces away from "contention". Well that's because they are. Hopefully they add these important pieces this offseason unlike last offseason (and no I did not consider Latos, Rollins, Jackson, Navarro as an honest attempt to address those holes). Laugh all you want but this team is a lot closer to contention than most folks on here are willing to give them credit for.

Yes, people are starting to see the light! With a few offseason moves this offense should at least be league average next season and, quite frankly, that's all they need to compete with this starting rotation assuming the #5 spot is properly addressed.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:38 PM) Well not exactly. Even in his good stretch last year he was walking a lot of hitters, and was still essentially a two-pitch pitcher. Now he's flashing an above-average changeup and has considerably cut down on the walks. I'm really liking the addition of the change up. I know he always had it but he seems to be using it a lot more recently. That pitch looks like a difference maker and the kind that can elevate a guy from being a good pitcher to a great pitcher. Very exciting stuff.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:11 PM) He did the exact same thing in the second half last year. Let's see him put together an entire season before we pencil him in as an ace. He's even better this year. Walks are way down. He was at 4.59 walks per 9 IP last year while this year he is all the way down to 2.78. Coming into tonight, fWAR of 2.2 probably around 2.4 after tonight's game. Will end the season in the 2.5-3.0 range, which will give him 4.5-5.0 thru his first 2 seasons. Just for reference, Q was at 5.1 thru his first 2 seasons combined. Barring injury, there is no reason to expect anything less than #2/3 numbers from him next season with the potential to put it all together and post ace numbers like Q did in his third season.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 10:15 PM) With Rodon coming into his own, I'm really pumped about what this rotation can do next season. Sale, Q, Rodon form arguably the best 1-3 combo in the league and back it up with Gonzo and hopefully a solid Fulmer and that rotation certainly has the potential to be top 2 or 3 in the league. It's hard to break up a rotation that strong with 4 of the 5 guys under 30 yo still. I'm all in on building around that staff but the front office has their work cut out for them this offseason in order to improve other areas of weakness on the roster. Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 05:58 PM) A guy with a wRC+ of 100 is not an adequate #6 hitter when you only have one elite hitter in your lineup. And you want to commit to this guy as your DH/1B for the next three years? Signing B & C free agents are why we're in this mess in the first place because they have limited room to decline and remain productive players. Look at Melky Cabrera for example, he's dropped off slighty with the bat and suddenly he's a sub 2 WAR player. Mitch Moreland is only a league average hitter today, so doesn't take much of a fall-off for him to become a below a negative overall contributor. He is simply not the answer at DH, no matter how bad Avi has been this year. We need much more significant upgrade at that spot if we're serious about competing next year. Someone like Edwin Encarcion would make sense. Problem is his market will be crazy and we probably don't have the money to get a player like him. Can't keep signing Moreland type free agents and expecting a different result. White Sox don't need a lineup full of elite hitters. They need one elite hitter (Abreu), three good hitters (Eaton, Fowler, Frazier/Melky) combined with a lineup of league average and one or two slightly below average hitters to have an average offense overall. A team with a league average offense and very good pitching and defense absolutely can compete for a playoff spot. They already have very good pitching and with a few tweaks it can be great. They have average defense and with a few tweaks (most notably C and CF) they can have very good defense.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 02:49 PM) Why is he any better than Morneau has been? Morneau is at 96 this year and he's only played in 44 games. Players not named Morneau have received the lion's share of at-bats at DH this year for the White Sox. Besides Morneau isn't signed beyond this year and I'd prefer the guy that is 4 years younger.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 02:26 PM) Mitch has a wRC+ of 100 this year and a career average of 101. He is not an impact offensive talent. Is he a LH power bat and better than Avi's career wRC+ of 89? If so, then he is an upgrade and an adequate no. 6 hitter behind Fowler, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, and Melky.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 12:46 PM) 2011 was a Classic Kenny Williams "go for it" year if there ever was one…. signing Crain and Adam Dunn, and extending AJ and Konerko… So if this is the type of "rebuilding" you are predicting for 2017, then we are truly f###ed As far as your Robertson prediction.. I hope JR is hungry, because if what you predict is true, he's gonna be chomping down on some salary…. I wouldn't be surprised to see them use the potential Roberston savings towards a FA acquisition(s) and for the 2017 "rebuild" to look fairly similar to the 2011 "rebuild". I still think it's more realistic they "retool" rather than "full rebuild". At the end of the day, I would be more surprised if they traded Sale than if they signed Moreland, Volquez, Wieters, and Fowler. Just my opinion.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 11:15 AM) Sox are currently 12th in the league in offense. Cleveland and Detroit stand at #3 & 4 respectively. How does the addition of these two second tier players even remotely put us in the same ballpark as those two teams? How do those two and Volquez close a 15 game gap with the Indians, and a 9 game gap with the Tigers? Are you just banking on those two teams tanking next season and, for the first time in a very long time, patchwork additions by the Sox catapulting them to the top of the heap? There's no doubt that Cleveland is a force to be reckoned with but they will still have some difficult decisions to make this offseason - resign Napoli and Davis? extend Santana or let him walk after next season? will Brantley make a full recovery from season ending surgery? can youngsters Tyler Naquin and Jose Ramirez continue performing at this high of a level? will Yan Gomes learn to hit again? They will most certainly enter next season as the division favorite but they are far from invincible. Consider this: the White Sox have a better, albeit slight, non-divisional record than the Indians. That just goes to show how poorly the White Sox have played within the division and how well the Indians have played within it but is this solely due to superior talent? If so, then why do the White Sox have a better record outside the division (43-37 vs. 45-41)? I still contend that filling the well-known gaping holes in this 25-man roster with average to above average talent (second-tier FA if you will) combined with changes within the organization (i.e. coaching, advanced scouting, etc) results in a team with the ability to contend for the playoffs next year. They don't need a top 5 offense to contend, league average will suffice, as long as they have a top 5 pitching staff and defense, which they are more than capable of. One final thought: Our fifth starter this season has a combined W-L record of 3-15 and an ERA of 7.77. So yes, the two starting pitchers that I have suggested as #5 starter candidates Edinson Volquez (10-10, 5.02 ERA) and Doug Fister (12-11, 4.14 ERA) would be MASSIVE upgrades from what they have gotten out of that spot this season. By massive, I mean 6 or 7 wins better just by replacing that one spot in the rotation with an average pitcher while keeping all else equal.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:53 AM) Well, to be completely accurate, what I said was: "Add a potent LH hitting, middle of the order bat, and one more significant offensive contributor..." I also said that Anderson may be able to stick in the top 2/3 of the order, which would mean that they would still be one bat short of an adequate top 2/3 of the order. Nevertheless, your question is still not only valid, but the most important one; Where are they going to find that one big bat? I have no idea, do you? I'd say the guys I previously suggest fill those needs: Moreland and Fowler. For probably a slightly higher cost, Alvarez and Desmond would work as well.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) That's the opinion of a former executive, not from anyone within the White Sox organization. But thanks for proving my point with some much needed snark! Isn't this whole discussion hypothetical anyway? How do you know the Sox wouldn't consider a proposal built around a young high profile arm? My initial comment was in response to the article posted by Caulfield and the idea of what they "should" get in a trade for Sale, which was suggested as "huge-upside, young, controllable pitching." That's how I jumped to that conclusion.