beck72

Even looking at his minor league numbers, I doubt Crede will ever have a good OBP. And his SLG % in the minors was poor, like .440. He may hit for avg. Yet like you said, he could get some top talent in a trade [esp a young team with not a lot of cash to spend] If the Sox were serious about upgrading at 3B, a LH bat would be ideal to replace some of Jose's power. But seriously get off Willie He's not going anywhere

The numbers don't bear out your assertions that he has showed a steady decline. But, given some drop off, would you take numbers like these for 2005? 26-2b 4-3b 5-hr 54-rbi 59-BB 60-SO 24 -SB 10 CS .275 /.341 /.359 While Omar may not repeat his current stellar 2004 numbers--2003 he was hurt, and has played virtually every game this yr--I'd take these anyday over Jose's. Jose's avg has dropped four yrs in a row, and has the most "3 pitches and your out" AB's I've ever seen in a major leaguer.

For some reason, Marte has looked very hittable this year. Cotts isn't too far away from taking on the late inning role. With the Sox acquiring a 5th starter, then Cotts is in the bullpen. I don't know if Marte's decline is a one yr thing or a harbinger of things to come. Ozzie has talked a lot about not seeing the Marte of 2003 this year. He would bring a nice price, just look at the Dotel and Mota deals. The Sox know Marte isn't closer material. Some team may gamble that he can be and overpay. While unlikely he's traded, it could happen. If the Sox could get a young, everyday player in return, the Sox should go for it.

3B could be upgraded with a midlevel FA bat, in either Bill Mueller or Corey Koskie. Both would give the Sox a different look offensively if Crede were traded. Teams may shy away from Koskie due to his injuries but the Sox would have a backup in Uribe. Some way, the sox still need to add a decent everyday LH bat, even if they sign Omar. Someone who can add 15+ HRs from the Left side [like a Koskie, or via trade, like Nick Johnson].

If I were a betting man, I'd wager that either PK or Lee will be traded as well [which should bring in a significant contributor tot he '05 team--Most likely PK] With Maggs, Pk/ Lee and Jose gone, those are major changes. Yet pitching will be addressed as well, both another SP and a bullpen guy or two. One thing overlooked is the fact that SP and the closer situation were addressed during 2004, with Freddy, Contreras and Shingo set.

Most FA's SP's will fall into that price range, between $6-9 mill. Very doable

Well said. Now let's go meet w/ KW!

I agree. But the same "all the eggs in one basket" argument also applies if the Sox give the SS job to Uribe. And Crede and Harris as well. With a vet at SS, and Uribe in the UTL role, he is 3B, SS and 2B insurance. More likely Uribe will be needed at 3B or 2B then Vizquel falling over the cliff in one yr.

If you are in favor of building around all these young guys, getting a vet like Vizquel fits in your plan. You count on the young guys to improve [crede, harris, rowand, davis, uribe] and get steady production from vets like Lee, Frank, Everett. What happens if Harris tanks, and Uribe is at SS? Then the Sox have to fill a hole at 2b in the middle of the season. What happens if Uribe is the everyday SS, and he tanks? then that creates a hole. Young guys falter a lot in their 2nd or 3rd seasons [ala Crede this yr]. So getting a productive vet is good insurance

I too expect the Sox to make IF changes. SS, 3B, 1B are all possibilities. If the Sox land a FA like Vizquel they don't have to make OF changes. They have Rowand in CF, Lee in LF, and someone in RF [Escobar, Everett, Andres Torres, Borchard]. They wouldn't need Pierre, as Anderson is very close to the majors. You and I are in agreement on Uribe. Keep him in the super sub role, and insurance in case of an injury to anyone at 3B, SS or 2B. Crede could be traded if they aren't sold on him. More likely, he'll stay and PK could go [get a LH hitting sweet fielding replacement--a nick johnson type who makes contact and gets on base] So the Sox wouldn't make many trades. Just one, and not resigning Maggs and Jose. The FA market would be the best way to go. Then the Sox don't have to dip into their depth. which Uribe plays a solid role in for the Sox.

Those "difference makers", as can't miss prospects or FA's come at a great cost, and much greater risk. The Sox have taken a lot of risks the past few years. I'm just saying it makes sense for the Sox to take a less calculated risk on Vizquel who can help the Sox fill a hole. By no means is he a savior, but a solid addition.

Robbie cost the Mets 3 top prospects. Vizquel will come much cheaper, for only cash and probably for what Valentin will get from another team. He's not expected to carry the team. Just get on base and move runners over for the RBI's guys to drive in. Vizquel has played in almost all Cle's games this year. And is hitting as well as he's had all year, almost into Sept. With a good bench, the sox could give him a rest and keep him even fresher. I know what your saying w/ re: to Robbie. [And Lofton, and Sandy] Yet Robbie looks and plays like he's 57. Vizquel looks like he's 27.

I never said to "build" around Vizquel. The Sox seem to be building around pitching, and I agree. If they add another SP and sign them to a 3yr deal ala Garcia, and get bullpen help, the sox money will be tied up with them. With very strong SP, the Sox will need to play small ball, and get guys who can manufacture runs, play solid defense. Vizquel can do this well, and should for at least 2 more years, better than most guys who could be available [certainly on the FA market] I wouldn't discount SS Wilson Valdez. He was acquired for next to nothing--Billy Koch.

We can debate the merits of who would be a better #1 or #2 hitter, Uribe or Vizquel. [the stats and smart money would be on Omar though] Yet Ozzie and Co. have stated they want to add speed and contact hitters to the lineup. Vizquel fits that bill. Uribe is a solid #6-9 hitter. No question. And he'll probably improve on his career avgs of .258 / .302/ .468. And he would be nice for the long term on the Sox. Yet which player would help the sox the most in 2005 and the near future? I bet most GM's around the league would say Vizquel would help fill the Sox needs better. And most likely Uribe would still be around to be the UTL player he was this year.

Willie's fine for a #9 hitter, and has a nice future. Maybe in few years he'll be a #1, when he learns how to steal bases and bunt, and hit LH and RHP equally well. But for 2005, I want a proven #1 or #2, to team with Rowand. Vizquel being a switch hitter also helps the Sox

the Sox don't need a complete rebuilding. they need to break up the core, sure. but adding a few pieces is the way to go, coupled w/ solid pitching. The Sox farm systems in AA and high A have great talent. That is the best way to win year in and year out. But the sox talent aren't exactly all 35 yr olds, ala Seattle. The sox have guys with trade value to acquire younger talent with. Getting Vizquel wouldn't be the centerpiece. But he would help. As far as Vizquel with no talent, no speed, no OBP--he's among the major league leaders in BA, SB, SH and OBP for SS's. Even at age 37. And plays solid defense. He'd be an upgrade over Jose V.

Is Uribe a top of order hitter? No Is Vizquel, even at age 37? Yes Could the Sox use Vizquel's 16 SB, .300 ba, .360 OBP, his situational hitting [leads the AL in SH,] contact [45 BB/ 51 K's], and solid defense? Yes The Sox need a #1 or #2 hitter, to go along with Rowand to get on base. Vizquel would be a solid option, and wouldn't be expensive. Getting a guy like Vizquel wouldn't keep the Sox from adding a SP. Though getting a guy like Renteria for SS would.

I really don't want Uribe as an everyday SS, unless the Sox could add a leadoff man who could add what Vizquel could. Uribe is a slightly different version of Jose. His career OBP is just over .300. He's streaky, and an easy out for long stretches. Guys like Uribe and Crede have a lot of value. My guess is one of the two will go if Vizquel is signed. At 3B I can live with Uribe, as long as his defense holds there. But at SS, Vizquel would add too much to this team, even at age 38 and 39. Though Crede should be able to bounce back and get to at least his 2003 numbers. I'd like a FA like Koskie. But if Vizquel wants to come here and signs, a move of Crede or Uribe should happen. Also, Valdez is in the mix. His glove and bat are very consistent. A UTL player who can play SS and 2B, a Uribe type who makes better contact and as good as d. Cle. still has Blake at 3B. With Blake locked up cheap, they could hold onto him to make sure Boone bounces back. With rookie Peralta at SS, having a vet like Boone beside him could be decent.

From the Cle. Plain Dealer: Enjoying Vizquel as swan song nears Thursday, August 26, 2004 Speaking of next year - a discussion topic of pertinence these days at Jacobs Field - the month of September will be best spent saying goodbye to Omar Vizquel. All good things come to an end. The bad, too, at least according to the promises in the self-help section of the bookstore. Evidence of that was sparse as it applied to losing streaks that threaten to take team researchers back 25 years for a similar skid. But two Indians runs in the eighth stood up this time with Rafael Betancourt on the mound, and they ended their nine-game slide, 4-3, against the Yankees. Vizquel watched old friend Kenny Lofton stand on first base, take a deep breath and doff his cap to a crowd brought to its feet to applaud his 2,000th career hit in the fourth inning. "It was weird to see Kenny get that hit in a different uniform," Vizquel said. "Especially after spending so many years next to him." Vizquel got his 2,000th earlier this season, but he'll almost surely re-enact the return to Jacobs Field in another uniform. The only way he won't is if he finishes his career with a National League team. He's 37 but has often talked of playing until he's 40 and that obstructs the timetable for turning the middle infield over to less expensive young players promising to wield bigger bats. The Chicago White Sox, who arrive today for a four-game series, look like a leading candidate for another Indians' transplant. When don't they? Lofton did a stopover there. So did Albert Belle and the Alomar brothers, Robbie proving that chances with the White Sox are a gift that keeps on giving. Manager Ozzie Guillen and Vizquel share roots in the dirt of Venezuela's sandlots. More important than any sentimental connection, the White Sox front office could use a sure hand at shortstop that only costs them money after trading seven prospects for Robbie Alomar and Carl Everett in acquiring each player twice. Cash is a more frequent topic of discussion here than it is in Chicago. Vizquel and Lofton could never have seen that coming when they shared the Indians' lineup in the '90s. But that's what it keeps coming back to in the case of Vizquel. Jhonny Peralta is blitzing the International League in Buffalo. Some in the organization believe he could play third base but the Indians' signed Aaron Boone to play there next year. Vizquel has said "a decent offer" could keep him in Cleveland but "decent" is relative. Peralta could bring more run production than Vizquel for a shade over $300,000. Even $2 million a season looks indecent compared to that especially under the streamlined model in place. That's $2 million they can't spend elsewhere. "I'm just going to continue to believe that I'll be back," said Vizquel. "All I'm thinking about is finishing strong. Myself and the team. It won't be hard to stay focused because this is an important process for us to go through. You learn to be a contender when you play games like this when you are tried and dragging. This will prepare us to contend next season." The Indians should want him back. His .300 season and strong defense since switching gloves has given them reason to consider it where absolutely none existed in the beginning of the season. But they can't do it. The team economy can't justify it. He is doing more for his Hall of Fame credentials than he is for his future with the Indians. Enjoy Omar Vizquel every dwindling chance you get. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Getting Vizquel for SS has to be on the minds of Ozzie and KW. Sign him to a two yr contract. With him at SS, there wouldn't be room for Uribe, Harris and Crede. Most likely, Wilson Valdez would be the UTL IFer. [i know he's played SS and 2B but I don't know about 3B] My guess is Crede would have the most value, and could be traded if they signed Omar. Uribe could be moved to 3B, kept around as SS and 2B insurance. In two yrs after Vizquels contract was up, Josh Fields might be ready for 3B.

It's smart thinking by the Sox. They can gauge interest in Garland and if are overwhelmed by a deal [which could happen, as teams are desperate for pitching and Jon could be arb. eligible in 2005], why not test the market.

As far as your ideas about a platoon w/ Willie, I think the sox have other holes to fill. Willie should improve on his 1st yr and hit .280+, with a decent OBP in '05. as far as leadoff, I started another thread on this. Omar Vizquel at SS would be a likely guy, as Cle. probably won't p/u his 05 option. They have a guy ready in AAA. There aren't many FA's who would hit leadoff, Dave Roberts one of them. David Eckstein maybe. But other guys would have to be acquired via trade--Cesar Izturis [if LA gets Nomar]; Chone Figgins; Jimmy Rollins [Phi. needs to make changes ala the Sox, so he could be part of the retooling process]. SS and CF are the best spots to get a leadoff guy. With Rowand able to move to RF, and w/ a better SLG % than Lee or PK, the Sox can afford to get an OBP guy in CF

You're right it was Sutton. He was hitting .373 in AAA though at 33 yrs old he doesn't have a big future

The $3.4 mill contract I was talking about was SS Alex Gonzalez'. They may want to include him in a package for Uribe, to get salary relief. Another big contract they might want to unload is Juan Encarnacion, who'll make $4.35 mill in '05. [Maybe an Everett swap?] Pierre will make $3.6 mill in '05

I certainly wouldn't put any plans on hold just to keep Everett in the lineup {though I do think he's hurting this yr more than he's let on] Frank will probably need some time off, that's if he's even ready for '05. So having Everett may be necessary at DH, and RF. Whether its Pierre or not, the Sox need a proven leadoff man. Willie should be penciled in as the #9 hitter. Spidale does have better numbers than Anderson though.

Just a small clue as to how FLA's upper level farm system is, they have 28 yr old former Sox farmhand Jeff Inglin playing OF in AA. They also called up a 33 yr old AAA 1B early in the year Larry Broadway [maybe he's still on the team]. If FLA could fill a few holes by trading one player and unloading a $3.4 mill contract so they could sign other players, it's possible.