caulfield12

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) I can think of a ton of teams that would love to have Sale. And they'll give up what exactly in return? Nothing like what the return would have been 48 hours ago. It's not unlike waiting too long to trade Jenks and Crede. Now the point of getting something of value that's not at least 2-3 years away in the low minors is gone for good.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 03:31 PM) Not really. The Sox traded for him when he was healthy using the same players as bait. That's when he said no. And then KW's stubborn-ness/he has to get his man eventually act kicked in. We did still have a chance to compete at that point (maybe 20-25%), but it would have made a much more dramatic difference to pick up Peavy 1 1/2 months earlier in the season, not to mention the disaster to the clubhouse morale of flopping Rios for Jermaine Dye and keeping JD on the roster.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ May 5, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) This. I think if we trade for a good young bat we can compete though. s***, maybe 2-3 or 4 bats. This lineup as is will not effectively grind down any pitchers all year. It will grind down the fans' patience, though. We've already seen this tired act for 3+ years now, the main difference is we could additonally watch Carlos Quentin jack another 30 randomly-timed homers out.

And the mental mistakes continue. Another reminder why we need Baines as a 1B coach, lol. Scherzer is notorious for not having a very good pick-up move. Beckham the other night, DeAza getting picked off...the wheels are completely coming off at this point. Just wait for Axelrod against Cabrera/Fielder/Avila and Stults against a highly-underrated Indians' line-up. There will be many "it's always darkest before the dawn" comments coming.

Okay Dick, let's forgo having the Cooper/Walker debate in a game thread because at this point it's beyond pitching and hitting coaches. Baseball is a game of momentum, and it has turned completely against us for now. It's really going to test Ventura's mettle in terms of whether he really wants to be a major league manager long-term or just stepped into the pool with a few toes to test the water.

I woke up for THAT mess, lol? Maybe it would have been better to keep sleeping with the way things are going now... Morel 32 k's, Dunn 40. Brent is going to set some kind of record for most K's without a homer in a season.

QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 02:31 PM) Yeah, but he was traded while injured. If he was healthy at the time, he would have costed much more than he did. Hmm.....trading for an injured pitcher is always going to be a calculated risk. Guess it's going to be one of those things like the D-Rose injury that will always be a big "what if," particularly in regards to the 2010 season.

QUOTE (flavum @ May 5, 2012 -> 12:01 PM) In my opinion, the Sox are one management move away from being 15-11 right now. And that's not having Reed in mind to close from the first day of spring training. This team has a lot of good things going for it so far. I'm not just going with the "Oh well, it's a rebuilding year" mindset. This team can win ballgames. And with the Angels starting so slow, you never know about a second wildcard. 88-win teams can earn a shot at the playoffs. Teams that maximize their talent can get there. Teams that give games away will always come up short. This team hands over games on a silver platter, and unfortunately part of it, a lot of it, is based on one management decision. But you can't just assume that our rookie closer (Reed) would go out there and have a 100% save conversion rate. It's just very unlikely. Maybe 14-12, but there's just no way all those games go their way, baseball doesn't work in such a fashion in the real world.

Gio's .152 BAA and 1.76 ERA say "hello!"

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:57 AM) So the season is lost now? Last I checked they aren't 10 GB. Apparently you are in the mode of trading everyone when their value is "peak". That's a nice way to build a team that will never win because your organization will be full of guys who aren't playing as well as they should because you would have rid yourself of all the "peak performers". To expect this roster to win is silly. Stranger things have happened and they still have a shot, but expecting it is just someone trying to be pissed off. Check back with me in 14 games. You're forgetting that we're starting Axelrod and Stults in consecutive games against the two best teams in the division. 2-8 easily goes to another 3-11 string on top of it and we're exactly where we were in 2011. I'll make you a bet. If the White Sox are over .500 on July 31st, I won't ever say a positive thing about Don Cooper again. And what's your side of the bet so that we don't have to hear any more Greg Walker nonsense? Did you predict 72-90? This team had a chance to compete with Sale in the rotation. If we were getting normal results out of our closer, we'd be 14-12 and only one game out of 1st. But that calculus changed 180 degrees with Chris out of the rotation, replaced by a line of AAA/AA call-ups.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:25 AM) Just what I've been saying about Don Cooper all along,yet you would go on and on about him. Now Thornton's no good, no one would take Danks, Floyd would only bring back a marginal prospect... Coop was walking on water in your eyes 2 weeks ago when you gave him 100% credit for Humber's perfect game. For the record, say what you want about Matt Thornton, but he certainly was Don Cooper's #1 success story. Jesus, you really can't read. Where did I ever give him 100% credit for Humber's game? Because I posted articles where Humber gave credit to Cooper? Well, I wasn't the one writing those articles or giving those quotes. Please, by all means, let's bring out all the quotes from the hitters about Greg Walker changing their lives or causing Gordon Beckham to almost hit for the cycle like he did yesterday. You realize Gordon Beckham's OPS now this year is a lot better than it was in 2011? Wonder why that is? For the record, Phil Humber gave credit to his faith in Jesus Christ moreso than anyone for giving him the spirit of perseverance when everyone else but the White Sox had given up on him. Please, please, please....go through that thread and quote back to me where I said "Don Cooper deserves 100% credit for Humber's success and the perfect game."

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:31 AM) Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll. He especially does a great job missing Travis Hafner's bat, or Jim Thome's bat, or Peralta's bat, haven't you noticed? Overall statistics can mask or hide the reality...when the game's on the line with Thornton out there in the 9th inning in a tie game, with the lead or with opposing runners in scoring position, something can and usually will go wrong.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:43 AM) I don't know what Walker has to do with this but if you check Ramirez's history, he's about where he usually is at through 26 games. In 2008 he didn't get his OPS to .500 until May 18th. In 2009 through 26 games his offensive numbers were identical to his numbers this year. In fact, his best "start" was last season. Through 26 games he was hitting .245. 2010 he basically had the same numbers he has now with a couple singles thrown in. And how does putting up good numbers every year from June on help the White Sox when they're already buried 10-15 GB in the standings? Wouldn't you agree that the season was lost last year already at the point when we were 11-22?

QUOTE (Jake @ May 5, 2012 -> 09:10 AM) WHAT? No. That's not it. The 13th pick in the draft is on our team and will continue to contribute...we have control of him for years. If anything, Sergio Santos pitched just well enough that we were able to delicately develop Sale away from the tough closer's role (ala Reed right now). Also still trying to figure out why we were supposed to get a future ace for an average closer with just a year's track record in Santos. Chris Young - He and Adam Dunn are in a tight race for career batting average, stay tuned.What do they have in common, one plays CF, the other is or should be a full-time DH. A .765 career OPS out of CF for relatively little money (the average of his contracts since 2006) compared to the $50-60 million we paid or are paying Alex Rios, Anderson, Griffey, Erstad, Pods, Pierre, Mackowiak, etc. Do you know what the OPS out of CF for the Chicago White Sox from 2006-2011 is? I don't even want to embarass your argument with that statistic, it might not be believed. Gio Gonzalez - Good player. We traded him for Thome (good deal) and Swisher (who you want back)Ozzie Guillen is able to get along with Swisher and we don't have to acquire Dunn. We don't have to acquire Dunn, we save millions of dollars and have another top outfield prospect in Brian Goodwin. Clayton Richard - Well. He's had one good full season in a pitcher's park, missed half of another with injury, and is now 28 and off to a slow start. Daniel Hudson - Promising young player, but again just one full season under his belt and a slow start underway. Traded him for a player you want.I'm glad you're not Hudson's agent in 2-3 years convincing an arbitration hearing of his worth. That's about the weakest description of a young/promising/affordable #2 starter that I've ever seen. Edwin Jackson - Reliable starting pitcher/innings eater, the type of middle of the rotation production that you blasted Nestor Molina for projecting out to.You can quote me on this and bring it back someday. Nestor Molina will never throw a no-hitter, be considered the best pitcher on the White Sox for any stretch or come close to throwing a shutout or complete game in Chicago. David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) - who knows, just a prospectsure, and when we have almost none, that bodes so well for the future, doesn't it? Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost (SEE ABOVE) Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost (SEE ABOVE) Mark Buehrle - He's old. Sorry, the Marlins gave him way more money than he's worth. Kenny would have been blasted for spending the money.If they had the choice today to bring back Buehrle under Danks' contract, a clear majority would pick that over Danks Sergio Santos - Career 3.5 ERA in the bullpen, now at 28 years old in just his third season he's doing his best Hector Santiago impression.If you're going to go off the results of just a few games in 2012, then Ryan Sweeney will be the American League MVP and negate anything negative you said about Santos Nick Swisher - Career .254 (.360 OBP) hitter that hits 20-30 HR/year and plays average defense in the corners. Played like s*** here and b****ed about getting benched for it. After that 35 HR season he seemed like he'd be great, but now he's over 30 and he's just an okay player.LOL...and we have how many of these "okay" hitters in our line-up right now, after Konerko? Ryan Sweeney - Hardly has played full time in his career and never found the power stroke that would define his prospect status. Slugging a grand ol' .386 for his career.Traded because the Sox grew impatient...heaven forbid they give a 22-23 year old player with potential time to develop Fautino DeLosSantos - His arm exploded as an A ball player after we traded him for a player you'd want back. Now he's 26 years old and just getting his first taste of middle relief.more depth at RH relief equals no need to waste more money on Jesse Crain when you're rebuilding from scratch These players aren't that great??? Sure, it'd be nice to have another starting pitcher but we thought we had more than enough. I guess Swish/Sweeney might play over Viciedo but that's dumb, we want Viciedo there for 10 years. If Viciedo wasn't playing there he'd be on this list.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) Now you're crying about Ramirez? When I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I think he's a lot older than what the record shows, you gave my post crap as you assumed it was a get rid of Ramirez post. I think you must be currently under the influence. Like you and your boy Walker, drinking that good 'ol Georgia moonshine with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coultrane. Ramirez has been declining every season offensively. His OPS this season is around 500. He's gone from a franchise shortstop to one whose contract we will be lucky to move in another year or so. As good as his defense is, we can't afford to have no offense from over half our line-up when you've got starters like Axelrod, Molina, Castro and Stewart to cover for.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:57 AM) Peralta's HR came on an 0-2 count, is that correct? Unbelievable how many times the Sox have given up big hits on 0-2 counts over the last year. Maybe Coop should tweak his attack the strike zone philosophy some. Kind of like the slider/slurve that never developed, either for Thornton or Poreda. Yes, Dick Allen, it's possible that there are some pitchers out there who can't be "cured" completely of their issues. That's why in his prime from 2002-2004, Marte was even better than Thornton, he had two pitches.

You're telling me that Rick Hahn being named GM TODAY would or actually could somehow prolong the suffering? Until 2017 or 2018 instead of 2015? Give me a break. Those moves that KW made to salvage 2008 have ended up putting off the rebuild for four full years. But what's left of Quentin, Floyd, Danks and Alexei Ramirez? Floyd has decent value, but not enough to get a potential frontline starter in return. Nobody would take Danks' contract today as is (like the Rios claim). Alexei Ramirez would get claimed based mostly on his defensive abilities, but the time to trade him to get the highest possible value in return has passed. Without the good fortune of hitting the lottery simultaneously with all four of those guys, the rebuild could have started much sooner and we'd now be in a much better position instead of waiting for 2014 or 2015.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:36 AM) Go back to that draft on google, and tell me who they should have selected instead of Sale. You will have a definite advantage as you can select ANY player from the 2010 draft picked after the "wasted selection of Sale". Give me that name, you will have the advantage of being able to determine 2 years worth of development, I will take Sale the releiver, you can have your selection and I will bet you whatever you would like to bet that 5 years from now, Sale was the better pick. Ring, Poreda, Sale. See the pattern? It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina. How valuable is that? You mean to tell me that Chris Sale could have gotten us Molina AND Stewart because he's left-handed? Wow! Consider me impressed. And, ONCE AGAIN, who will Chris Sale and Addison Reed close or lock down games for? We're going to trade our best starter or lose him after the season (Jake Peavy), so why is the bullpen so important for a team now in full rebuilding mode? Chris Young Gio Gonzalez Clayton Richard Daniel Hudson Edwin Jackson David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn Mark Buehrle Sergio Santos Nick Swisher Ryan Sweeney Fautino DeLosSantos I'd like to have all those players back. Then Chris Sale ending up as a reliever wouldn't be make or break for this organization going forward.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:26 AM) Now, you're in Williams' head too? You know what the organization was thinking. You guys are going to b**** when we draft safe. You're going to b**** when we take risks. The last few 1st round picks have been great IMO, including Sale. It beats the hell out of Broadway and McCulloh or whatever the f*** his name was. The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND. You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell. You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:23 AM) So Sale has superstar ability and it was stupid to take him in the 1st round? You need to get out of the crib more. Take a walk or something. Grab a drink and wake up in somebody's yard. Can you READ? Just because he has superstar ability in his ARM doesn't mean his arm will stay attached. See Mark Prior. It was STUPID to take a reliever with the 13th pick in the first round, end of story. I shouldn't have bothered to say superstar, because there's NO SUCH THING AS A SUPERSTAR RELIEVER EXCEPT MARIANO RIVERA IN ALL OF BASEBALL HISTORY.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:18 AM) He was the 13th overall pick. It's not like he's Strasburg. The risk was worth taking and I'd take it again. Were you crying when they picked him? Most people weren't. The Sox will get more out of Sale than most teams will out of their 1st round pick. ONCE AGAIN, you have to LIKE ACTUALLY look at the future when you draft a kid. KW was only looking at the short-term (as usual) time period of 2010 and 2011 when that draft pick was made, and bolstering the bullpen immediately, as well as signing someone for less money who wanted to get to the big leagues more quickly. If he actually would have kept Jim Thome around, we probably would have won the ALCD in 2010 and it would have been at least somewhat logical. As it now stands, it doesn't help us at all for 2013/2014/2015 and beyond. We already had Sergio Santos, who was cost-controlled and effective. Why do we need for our top two prospects to be relegated to the least valuable status possible for a team in rebuilding mode? It's called planning and future projection.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:15 AM) If Don Copper is the miracle worker you continously claim he is, finding a starter to take Sale's innings should be pretty easy. The fact is, Sale was going to be removed from the rotation in July or August even in the best cast scenerio.What has Don Cooper done with John Danks? Chris Sale has/had actual superstar talent and ability. You can't take a Jeff Marquez or Dylan Axelrod or Nestor Molina and make them 1-2-3 starters in the major leagues. No pitching coach in history could pull that off. Cooper has done nothing wrong with John. Danks is clearly having a dead arm period or more serious physical problems that no pitching coach could overcome. THE ONLY hope I have for the starting rotation in the future is the possibility that Santiago and/or Castro can make it. And after Zach Stewart's no longer with the White Sox, we'll see how many other teams pick him up and turn him into a 20 game winner.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:06 AM) You want KW to hide the problem, run the kid out there and further risk ruining his career, and then, trade damaged goods. Great f***ing idea. Step away from the computer, dude. No, if you were paying attention to your computer monitor. DO NOT DRAFT PITCHERS WHO ONLY PROJECT AS RELIEVERS DUE TO THEIR MECHANICS AND/OR FRAME, NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY THROW OR IF THEY'RE LEFT-HANDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many major league teams do you know of that have drafted relievers in the freakin' first round THREE TIMES (Ring, Poreda and Chris Sale) in one decade, let alone ONCE? All supposedly hard throwers, all left-handed. It's just stupid, stupid, stupid. In fact, I'd rather they just did the TJ surgery today, and tried to get him ready to be a starter again in 2013 and 2014. He's worth pretty much nothing right now, about as much as Gordon Beckham.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:04 AM) The Sox can have Sale close and Reed work in the 7th and 8th innings. You're making no sense BTW. You claim the Sox need Sale in the rotation to be any good, yet you seem more concerned with what other teams would be interested in giving up to acquire him. Who cares what other teams value him at? Closers are extremely valuable. The giant RED FLAG would have been Chris Sale undergoing surgery. What starters will they be closing out any wins for this season besides Jake Peavy (and after he's traded to save cash, who then)? Starters are 5-10X more important than relievers on rebuilding teams. And taking Sale out of the starting rotation means we're 100% in full rebuild now. No going back. Santos was the first move, albeit idiotic. Signing Danks long-term makes even LESS sense now than it did when Sale was going to be a fixture in the rotation for years to come. And Ventura doesn't even trust Reed, FWIW.

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