caulfield12

Looks like the Indians and Tigers will be tied again at 6 over. Time to make up some ground. Of course, the Twins are beating up the Padres at home and will only be 3 GB of the White Sox as we take the field. Need to stop the bleeding, because if Hudson beats us, we'll never hear the end of it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 06:43 PM) The White Sox have had the fortune of playing KC, Cleveland, and for the most part Detroit 18 times a year the past 10 seasons or so. 84 wins should not be acceptable. Except for 2005 and a couple of other years, the pattern seems to hold true. You think they have a good team. They fall flat on their face, play crappy ball for 3 or 4 months, rally to get back in it and fall apart at the end. They win 83 or 84 games and 5 years later the year is called a success because in the 70s the Sox really sucked. I call BS. Win the division. Make the playoffs. You have had a big advantage over your division foes for years and have squandered it far too often. 2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website. Not to mention AJ and the Angels. Contreras lost to Byrd, we were VERY VERY close to being down 2-0 in that series. We made our own breaks too, but every possible thing that needed to happen broke our way from the end of that game through Game 4 of the WS. 2008 was a fun year too, because of Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd all emerging, but let's not pretend we were anything close to a dominant team coming down the stretch.

Well, if it's not Daniel Hudson...maybe Chris Young can go all Mike Cameron on us and hit 3 dingers. Giving Phil Rogers an excuse to write another anti-KW screed.

We have done it a few times recently, most notably with MacDougal and eating Linebrink's contract, but that was in the offseason. Teahen, Pierre, AJ (because of 2012), Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Matt Thornton (as a set-up man signed to a pseudo-closer's deal) and Buehrle (although you can't argue with his pitching since the end of April, he's definitely worth close to his contract numbers) all to one extent or another represent "bloated" contracts. Can some of that change? We'll just have to cross our fingers and find it. By my count, that's 7 or 8 players, roughly 30% of the roster. For a long, long time in this decade, KW was very very good with not making these kinds of mistakes. The only real arguments about "bad" contracts centered on Konerko (a few off stretches which now look more and more like aberrations), Contreras and the bullpen mess with MacDougal, Linebrink and Dotel (to a lesser extent). Perhaps Jenks too, the last couple of years, but that's arguable.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:41 AM) Milkman - "we're better than we used to be, so we should be happy" is a straw man. I brought up the past to frame that the level of faithlessness around here was commiserate with that era, not this one, and to provide some context. That said, certainly, I have been pretty satisfied with the fact that our team competes nearly every season, which provides me with SOME FAITH in the leadership and organization as a whole. See, somehow lost in these three pages is my central point - that 90% of this board has absolutely zero faith in this organization, GM and manager. Really, think about this point for a second. It's astounding. Given their track record over the past 7 years (and in a larger sense two decades) - is is really appropriate in 2011 to have zero faith in this organization, GM and manager? Let's talk about the payroll for a second, because it was brought up. In 2004, the first year of Guillen's tenure, the Sox had a 65 million dollar payroll, injuries to their two best hitters, and still won 83 games. In 2005, they had the 13th highest payroll and won the World Series. They didn't have a top 5 payroll in 2010, they didn't even have a top 10 payroll in 2009! In 2008 they won the division. So even if we consider 2010 a "disappointment" compared to the payroll, less than half the seasons can be summed up disappointments. In 2011, the book is still out, as much as it seemingly makes some people seethe. I think you meant commensurate. Commiserating is what we all do after a Twins series. Now you're backtracking from calling out the entire board, dark clouds and doomsayers to just having "some" faith? Nobody has ZERO faith. It's simply a matter of ZERO FAITH that Ozzie and KW can work together well, efficiently or on the same page. Once again, this month, we're seeing fault lines forming around what to do with Pena/Gray or Viciedo/Pierre or Lillibridge/Pierre. Do you really believe that all the oars in this organization are pulling in the same direction, in complete synchronization? Payroll is only relative to what other teams in the division are spending. Even then, it's pointless. Do the Marlins get some type of "lowest dollar cost average spending per victory" trophy every year? Should we give out first place to the team that manages to make the most profit, or give teams operating with the highest ROI home field advantage in the playoffs? Last time I checked, the A's, Twins or Rays couldn't go out and add $30 million in salaries to their playoff rosters when it came time to face the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels. If you want us to be ranked by efficiency of spending over the last decade in our own division, we're twenty thousand leagues behind the Twins, roughly at par with the Indians (they have 2001-2002, 2005, 2007 and 2011 so far) and arguably only more effective than the Tigers, who are the odds on favorites now to win the division. The Royals, you'll get 10 different answers here....but you can be sure their future is undoubtedly brighter for FINALLY following a plan or strategy, not being distracted from the "master plan" and focusing like a laser beam on the final destination of 2012-2015.

If Peavy was coaching the Heat, they would definitely have swept the Mavs.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:29 AM) His bad days are pierre's every day pierre's good days are his average days his good days are not avaialable to pierre at thsi time Isn't that the associative theory or a story problem from 8th grade algebra?

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:20 AM) If only we had room for him on our roster, but with Juan Pierre raking, I just don't see it happening. There should be zero concern for Roger Bossard. Viciedo's natural stroke will crush the same number of grass blades on the right side of the infield as Pierre's cavalcade of 4-3 pull hook grounders. As a matter of fact....like Arizona with that cutout between the mound and plate, they should plant lumescent green runway lights in the grass pointing like an arrow between the bag and second baseman and light them up whenever Beckham, Rios and Quentin are hitting to remind them to stay locked in and go up the middle and to the right side. Just saw a new wikipedia entry..."Jordan4Life instituted a reign of terror during the infamous 2011 White Sox Revolt in an effort to keep the revolution pure and to shut down all opposition to his will."

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:05 AM) That actually...was...a...great, coherent caulfield post! Glad I restrained my desire to throw in quotes from J4L, Mark Harmon/Gibbs from NCIS (another managerial candidate), Harvard philosophy professor Michael Sandel and The Green Lantern on "courage and hope versus fear" (of the Twins).

Here's another major point. Besides Jake Peavy, what injury problems have we had this year? Can we really legitimately use that as an excuse, like in 2004? Are we going to be saying "well, if Adam Dunn doesn't have his appendix removed in the first month, he would have gone on to put up an MVP season?" I'm not going to list all the Twins players they've been without, but note both the Tigers and especially the Indians have had FAR MORE injuries to deal with than the White Sox in 2011. That's yet another source of frustration. C'mon, if we get to 1,000 replies, Phil Rogers promised to mention SoxTalk in his Sunday "Whisperings" column.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:57 AM) Honestly, this is the problem. Contending is a good thing, but if during a 20 year stretch, you contend in 10 of them and come up short, it is very apparent that you have failed to put your team over the top. Great, we're the Adlai Stevensons of the baseball world.

You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here. Stability? Seriously, you're joking. I'm not even sure how to look this up, but there's been more roster turnover from the point after the 2005 championship through 2011 than any other organization in the game. That's the whole problem with his approach....he's like the mad scientist throwing together odd combinations of talent from 100 different directions and organizations and hoping they'll all jell together. Please define one thing our organization is known for around the game of baseball? We have ZERO identity. Williams and Guillen have run off and ditched "winning" ballplayers like Uribe and Cabrera while trying to amass the most talented roster with players who simply don't/didn't fit like Rios, Javy and Swisher. Your analogies are the same ones I used to make when many defended this organization in the past. Last time I checked, the Cubs weren't winning the attendance championship or the Sox a trophy for highest winning percentage with fewest division titles ring. Didn't know they were giving it out this year. You mention 2008-2010, but you conveniently skipped over how 2007 and late 2006 completely wiped out any momentum this organization had in terms of taking back the city from the Cubs and "branding" a new generation of youngsters in Chicago as White Sox fans for life. Instead, we're left with this constant soap opera and sniping back and forth between Williams and Guillen that is the antithesis of stability. We still don't have a coherent drafting philosophy that's discernible. We have never come close to bringing up "waves" of players together in the minors....players that learn the "White Sox Way," learn how to win together and are promoted together a step at a time, learn how to handle success and failure at the minor league level (see Beckham, Gordon) as well as correct fundamentals from a pitching and hitting standpoint so that they "hit the ground running" when they reach the majors. The White Sox major league players are constantly struggling to adjust to chaos all around them...I could understand why they find it hard to trust each other when they're being thrown under the bus every other week when the team is playing poorly. We hadn't really drafted a single "pure" baseball player in ages until Beckham, and now he's a shadow of his former self. All we did was collected athletes and tried to make them into baseball players, because that's what KW was...a football player playing baseball but with a football mentality. Everett and Rowand were right....with each Crede, Uribe and Cabrera lost from that clubhouse, the leadership vortex shifted to the point where there's no longer anyone in the clubhouse who has the personality to get in anyone's face and lead this team. AJ used to be like that, but his skills and respect in the clubhouse have to be waning. Konerko and Buehrle will never be those personalities....neither will Alexei. Danks and Buehrle might not be around much longer. We all expected and predicted Gordon Beckham would become that player and the abyss he's fallen into is reflected on the disarray in the organization and the lack of answers for how to get some of these guys turned around. We just have too many nice guys (like Juan Pierre, Adam Dunn or Mark Teahen) and not enough Peavy's.

Well, you might as well get rid of all threads criticizing Beckham, Peavy, Dunn, Rios, AJ, Pierre, too. Because nothing's going to change. That's kind of whole point. In the last 2 1/2 seasons, we've been provided one stretch against mostly inferior NL competition...which is supposed to give us faith and confidence that anyone actually still has a clue what they're doing. Thome for Kotsay last year, the stubborn insistence on giving Juan Pierre 700+ plate appearances, our complete inability to beat the Twins, even when they have one of the worst records and active rosters in the major leagues.... If Edwin Jackson gets taken down by Hudson tonight, we're going to have 10 separate threads about it. At this point in 2011, what reason is there to believe that they will figure out a way to beat the Twins and Tigers with their current roster? It's been debated for years how difficult it would be to change out most of the roster...so how could a fresh perspective possibly hurt? If we keep going back to this "JR is loyal to a fault" argument, then you can forget about anyone ever being held accountable for anything in this organization. How many players that weren't in Ozzie's doghouse for more complicated reasons have legitimately been held accountable for not doing their jobs? How many "lessons learned" have actually taken, from all the Camp Coras and sacrifice bunting practice.....has anyone ever seen the coaching staff improve the abilities of a player who wasn't fundamentally sound when he arrived in Chicago? Do we just push all of that off on a fired scouting director and ignore the ongoing failures at the major league level with Beckham and Rios? We can make excuses for Dunn and Peavy and Teahen and Pierre, but what excuses or explains why two potential star players are fizzling out? Just watch. KW will resign because Ozzie's not going to quit and they're not going to fire him. Guillen clearly has more power than KW...if you were Rick Hahn and had been observing Guillen post 2006, would you really want to put up with him? Do you honestly think that Hahn would be given the ability to fire Guillen whenever he wanted as one of the conditions of assuming the position? Ozzie Guillen is basically Billy Beane, except he's the manager and not GM and all the brashness and bragadoccio isn't accompanied by the baseball intelligence to not stubbornly hold onto Juan Pierre in LF or Mark Kostsay as DH.

http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1588-cou...itts-blind-side MONEYBALL TRAILER Wish they would have picked someone besides Jonah Hill as the DiPodesta character, and Hoffman as Howe? Well, it looks like it COULD be pretty decent.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 01:07 AM) Kill Juan Pierre. Be careful, I've heard he's under Secret Service/NCIS protection. Don't want you to land in prison.

And the freakin A's. It's no longer an automatic death sentence when we go out there to play, but I'm pretty sure we've had five blown saves in ten games against this one, individual team. In the span of just two months. Some teams don't even go 162 games with that many blown saves from their closer. I know we finished 6-4 against them, but it really should have been 9-1 or at least 8-2.

Please sign...haha. Seriously, this is too much. Now before someone suggests Joe McEwing, keep in mind that 1) he comes from the LaRussa school of managing (with its pros and cons) and can we honestly say that he's played an integral role in the development of any of our players? Maybe he has...I don't follow the minors as much as some here, would like to be enlightened. Dave Martinez is a former Sox RFer, very popular around the game, well-spoken and good with the media and ladies (cue jokes about stealing Sandberg's wife), a disciple of one of the 3 best (and creative) managers in the game in Joe Maddon, and he comes from a system where players are drafted and developed....instead of constantly mixing in FA talent and 25% roster changeover every offseason via trade. He also fits with the Sox mode of being on the cutting edge in minority hiring and promotion, the Sox having already baptized Ozzie, KW and Kim Ng in key leadership positions. Just say no to Joey Cora!!! If Martinez won't take the position because it's the middle of the season, deferring to an off-season interview opportunity, then you go to Omar Vizquel as player manager, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Robin Ventura or Jack McDowell and offer them the job for the remainder of the season. You'd keep Cooper/Baines (not sure exactly why, just hate the idea of making him the scapegoat for some reason) in place and then let those guys name their own hitting coach. I don't think Ventura would do it, out of respect to Ozzie, but McDowell might be crazy enough to try. But seriously, in Hahn's shoes, he should go with Omar Vizquel for the rest of the year and roll the dice. Cooper came to mind as well, but for the White Sox fanbase to really get back behind this team, it needs to be someone connected to Sox history or Chicago who's NOT Cora, Buddy Bell or Walker. If those four guys wouldn't do it, I'd also consider offering the position to Steve Stone. I'd much rather go down this "all in" season with Stone Pony, Dave Martinez or Omar Vizquel than Ozzie making the decisions. Ventura (as hitting coach), McDowell (bench coach) and Alomar, Jr. (bench coach), would be 4-6. Fisk, #7. Tony Pena (former catcher and Royals' manager, not reliever) #8. I would throw Jake Peavy's name into the mix but he would probably get hurt again and nobody would listen to him.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 10:47 PM) I do not think this will be true for much longer though. Scott Merkin had a piece on Whitesox.com about Viciedo and he was also on the score with Rosenbloom and McKnight earlier this evening. Merkin seems to believe that Kenny would ideally move Quentin to LF right now and call up Viciedo to start in RF. He also makes mention in the article of KW saying that Viciedo and Quentin will be in the same Sox OF at some point and it is someone else's job to figure out who leads off. Ozzie obviously would rather have a more traditional leadoff type hitter and hence sticks with Pierre. IMO, Kenny is dropping the ball though by not overruling Ozzie and making the move if that is indeed true. It's his job to DFA Pierre for assignment. I suppose they BOTH are hoping and praying that Pierre finally comes to life for an extended period of time during interleague play. If not, it's KW's job to take Pierre away from Ozzie as an option and supply a better one, internally or by trade. Throwing your hands up in the air and saying it's someone else's problem, that's total B.S. I really don't think Williams even believes that crap, either. At this point, Lillibridge or Ramirez are the best options. They absolutely have to get a more productive hitter in a position where he's getting the most plate appearances on the team. Do they really believe Pierre will just "catch fire" and steal 25-30 bags in the second half of the season when the hot, humid summer weather starts to catch up with all the players in August/September? The White Sox historically have faded down the stretch. Maybe younger blood around the time can help counteract that effect. It's worth a try, because what they're doing now against Minnesota and Detroit simply isn't working.

The first time the Twins rolled over us with Liriano, they were playing like absolute crap. This has nothing to do with the fact that the Twins were "hot" because we were playing close to as well as we have (this season) for the last 20-30 games, too. The Twins have been missing Thome, a healthy Morneau, Span, Mauer, Glen Perkins, Nathan and Nishioka. Delmon Young has done his best impersonation of Juan Pierre offensively and defensively after playing like the American League MVP the first four or five months last year. Valencia has spent more time fighting with Cuddyer than hitting the ball. Their catchers are hitting something like .150-.175 since Mauer's been out. I think they've made the most transactions of any MLB team this year, trying to find the right mix in the bullpen. Their AA and AAA teams had the worst record in the minors last year and I think they're close to that distinction this year as well. The Twins are only 9 games back. I'd bet my money on the Tigers if I was a betting type, but there's NO WAY I would rule out the Twins. They have enough players still around who remember 2006. They have another Liriano or Duensing or Valencia in the minors somewhere, just lurking. One adjustment they'll have to make is giving us this idea of Nishioka playing SS. He definitely needs to be at 2B with Casilla (who's been raking during the recent 11-2 run) back at SS. Nishioka's definitely not a 3 hitter and he's hard-pressed to argue he has the arm of Omar Vizquel at age 44. They undoubtedly made a mistake trading Ramos for Capps last year, but they still have a ton of depth with Slowey and Gibson...not to mention Revere's getting better and better with each week at the big league level, gaining in confidence. Aaron Hicks has a lot of tools, too.

Who is going to be Dallas McPherson II this year? Definitely not De Aza...they won't bench Pierre. Gookie Dawkins? He's kind of superfluous with all the Vizquel/Teahen/Lillibridges. For some reason, I'll be shocked if they actually bring up Dayan.

However, for Morel to be an above average player, he simply has to be nearly a Gold Glove level fielder. It's his rookie year, so he's going to get some rope there, but he hasn't exactly been making anyone forget Ventura or Crede. Heck, if he was just an amalgam of Uribe/Crede (20 homers, 65-85 RBI's), I think everyone would be as pleased as punch. Something happened to the team attitude changed when Uribe left and the talented but enigmatic Rios was added to the mix. They're not going to DFA Rios or Dunn or send Beckham to Charlotte, and Konerko's gotten to the point in his career where a hitting coach like Walker isn't as necessary, but with the Rio/Dunn/Beckham triumvirate, Morel still finding himself and Viciedo on his way, how could a fresh perpective at that position possibly hurt? Is it the fear that Quentin, Ramirez and Konerko will fall apart without Walker? Maybe even a new hitting coach could figure out a way to get one more solid offensive season out of AJ, since we're unlikely to eat a $6 million contract before 2012 begins. OR could work some magic with Tyler Flowers and Jordan Danks, you have to be willing to think outside of the box at SOME POINT.

QUOTE (Real @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) And the Sox will be back in 3rd place in September when we play divisional opponents 4 times a week 1-9 against Minny and DET. Otherwise, we're great against our division and in first place, haha.

It will be a very quiet board tomorrow night if Jackson whips Hudson. Otherwise, the servers are going to crash on KW's head. Although with the late night start, maybe it will be SOMEWHAT quiet, especially heading West as usual with our tail between our legs after the predictable Twins victory.

The only good thing to say is that it's easier to find hitting than good starting pitching. The problem is that we have to replace Buehrle, Danks and Jackson somehow. God help Sale and Peavy.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 02:22 PM) Guillen should be fired today down 1-0 his moves from 8th inning on were horrid. Down 1-0 43 yr old is your best option with 2 out because you f***ed the pooch as usual. Pirates are over .500 Sox have no clue how to get there! Why do we care what the Pirates are doing? They haven't done a thing for two decades, and now they're a measuring stick for the Sox because they've had about 15 Top 5 draft picks in a row?