The Sir

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 12:35 PM) I don't discount the sacrifice that soldiers make for this country, but at the same time not everyone should have to be in the military at some point to be considered even or to be in office. That's asking for a quasi-military state and is really just stupid. For me it is. To get my vote, you must unwavering conservative views. You must have remained faithful to your wife. You must have served in the military. You don't have to do these if you don't want my support.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 12:24 PM) The biggest issue I have with your posts is that you seem to only value soldiers (see an earlier post that you would never vote for a presidential candidate who had not served in the military) In 2012, I'm voting for the Commander in Chief. Aka, my boss. And while I will follow the orders of any CiC because that's what good Soldiers do, I personally will not support a candidate who had not once been in my shoes. I do not believe you are qualified to command the military as a whole without having been in it yourself. That's my personal choice.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 12:13 PM) No one, and I mean no one is going to dispute that. Some people didn't come off that way, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Besides, I know how worthy our mission is and every Soldier does too. They wouldn't be here if they didn't. I've said my piece and that's it. No use beating a dead horse. Jake, thanks for providing the voice of reason.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 11:37 AM) This whole "f*** everyone else while I pat myself on the back" discussion is getting a bit tired. I wasn't going to sit back while people tried to give credit for the military's excellence to everyone except the Soldiers themselves. This isn't about me, this is about defending Soldiers. But you wouldn't know anything about that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 11:16 AM) But that anecdote doesn't answer the question...and presumably there are different backgrounds represented there as well, in terms of educational achievement/language skills, etc. Meh. This is getting away from my original point, which is that our military is great because of the young men and women who volunteer to die for it, and not because of the taxpayers. Without those great Americans, this organization is nothing.

My ex cheated on me. And before one of you smart asses tells me it's because I'm such a conservative prick, this was a person who once claimed that she knew fascism was a good thing because she saw what it had done to her native Italy. I'm small government right wing, so this was a bizarre statement even to me. Point is...she was and still is a bad person. I feel really embarassed for having dated her.

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 10:42 AM) No, I'm not. But the primary reason our military is better than everyone else's is funding. Right, you need training too. And its NCOs who conduct that training. Yeah, tax dollars pay his salary and give him the training equipment, but he is an excellent teacher and that is his credit alone. Tax dollars help us immensely, but my point remains that it is the men themselves who make this organization what it is. Taxpayers don't go to Afghanistan and pay in blood. Balta, I went to infantry officer training with several foreign nationals. To say they were on par with the Americans in the same course would be an outright lie. Just from my own observations.

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 10:21 AM) Primarily, funding makes our military as lethal as it is. And by saying this, you're still denying the high quality of these Soldiers by themselves. Yes, our big money gives us some cool s***. But you still need good men to use that equipment successfully against the enemy. Just giving ten guys a kevlar vest and helmet, some mag pouches and an M4 does not make them an infantry squad. Fund all you want. But without the Soldier who is brave enough to don the armor and carry the rifle, we've got nothing.

QUOTE (Tex @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 08:58 AM) America can be the best at whatever we value as a society. If we placed the same high value on say health care that we do on the military we would apply the necessary resources to make us #1. It wouldn't just be the brave Doctors and technicians. It would be the researchers, the technicians, and all of society. You are ignoring all the civilian contributions. Plus, I think it is really disregardful for you to impersonate a soldier. But whatever. Paying your taxes, hence allowing the military to be funded, is important. But following the law does not equate to risking your life as a volunteer. Thanks for doing what the government obligates you to do but that doesn't make you noble or brave. It's pathetic that you think it does. You love civilian control of the military is great. And I do too. It is a trait of all liberal democracies. But that's not why our military is the best on Earth. Did Barack Obama show thousands of Soldiers how to shoot or how to clear room or how to react to an ambush? No. Soldiers do that. They train and then they implement. Warriors make our military as lethal as it is; not the bureaucrats who sit in their DC offices. It's absolutely reprehensible for you to try to deny that. I don't care what you think of my politics. Don't ever accuse me of impersonating a Soldier. That is bush league bulls***.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 09:06 AM) I'm never said it was right. Just pointing out that it's something that's common. You might be right. And that's pretty sad. Personally, I refuse to condone adultery by voting for anyone who has committed it. That's an automatic no-go in my book.

QUOTE (Tex @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 08:18 AM) Yes. Civilian oversight has created the greatest military system in the world. Civilian support of the military, both financially and philosophically, has allowed all those cool tools you have. The funding has allowed a training system beyond anything the world has ever seen. If the country did not support the military, and funded it at a much lower level, those victories would be much harder, perhaps impossible. It's like ignoring the owner when a team wins a championship. What do you do? Allow a bit of money to be siphoned out of your paycheck every two weeks? And somehow that makes you comparable to the Soldier, who pays his debt with his life? Sure, thanks for the funding, but don't expect me to fall to my knees proclaiming what a great and noble individual you are. Also, the military's great because of the people who serve in it. Civilian oversight protects our democracy but it doesn't make the military the best on Earth. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines do that.

QUOTE (Tex @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 07:52 AM) Then don't b**** at any cuts in funding or a lack of support from citizens. Do it on your own. Wait...do you think you deserve some of the credit for our triumphs because we are funded by your tax dollars? Maybe I read that wrong, but that seems to be your implication.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 07:00 AM) This logic really pisses me off. This country has engaged in reckless spending for decades, heck almost 100 years now. When you finally get one group who is willing to stand up and try and stop them, THEY get victimized. Seriously this is akin to the person who takes the keys from the really drunk guy. The really drunk guy gets pissed off because he is "OK to drive home" and "I have been much worse than this before" Logically he should be pissed off at himself for being stupid and endangering himself. Instead he is pissed off at the person who tries to stand up and save him. Should we be cutting now? No. But pretending we don't have a debt problem and demonizing the people who are trying to keep us from turning into Greece or Spain is just short sighted and partisan politics at its worst. But the left wing has their media marching orders, and they are going to keep pounding home that spending money we don't have is good, even though we can see what is happening around the world to countries that are steps past where we are now, yet are on the road too if we keep up our spending ways. No it would be nicer if the left wing would just put their keys in someone else's hands and sober up, but they aren't about to do that. Which is why the Tea Party was even allowed to come into existence, let alone prominence, despite the media slander sessions.

QUOTE (Tex @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 05:57 AM) I believe civilian control of our military has worked very well for our 200+ years. I never said otherwise. All I said is that those civilians don't get credit for our successes. FDR didn't win WWII, GHWB didn't crush Saddam in 1991, Obama didn't get Osama and so on.

You're right, Quin. Honestly, you are. Why do I get so worked up about these people who don't really matter? Froma Harrop doesn't really matter. StrangeSox doesn't really matter, and equally I don't really matter. Brother Jed freaks me the f*** out (I've made my dislike for evangelists well-known), but he doesn't really matter. And as much as I dislike the evangelical American Atheists, it saddens me that 8,000 people would want to murder someone because AA got an opportunity to spread their views. Still, those people don't really matter. Well, not until they actually murder someone, which they won't. So you're right. I'm not being sarcastic or underhanded with this. There is really no point in getting worked up over every doofus who disagrees with me. Very few of them actually matter.

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 11, 2011 -> 02:33 AM) I hear this often. And this is certainly true. It seems unclear what role Obama played other than giving the mission his blessing (and this may have even been through a staffer or something, I don't know). However, if we hold the statement "Obama killed OBL" to that level of elaboration, why don't we do that with other issues, especially non-successes? Economy is bad = Obama ruined the economy? Or is that an unfair statement? That's a legitimate question. And here's why. If you want to tell me that Obama ruined the economy or that the Tea Party ruined it, whether I agree with you or not, you're just s***ting on a different group of politicians depending on your viewpoint. I'll surely have an opinion and I'll let you know, but it's not really a huge deal. But if you tell me that Obama killed Osama, and leave the Navy SEALs out of it, you're s***ting on their sacrifices and their heroism. Obama was not a Soldier. Therefore I am disinclined to believe that he did any of the tactical planning at all, and merely said something along the lines of, "Hmm....OK". And then he sat comfortably in the Situation Room and watched the mission. I'm very happy that he OK'ed it, and from reports on the whole thing, it seems he was very much concerned with the safety of our brothers. But he's not the one who went to Navy basic training, and then to SEAL training, and then to Afghanistan and so on. He's not the one who decided on his own will to leave his safe little life in the West and go to Afghanistan to fight a horrible enemy of ours. He's not the one who gets paid dirt to sleep in the dirt, still caked in his own blood, sweat and tears. You get my point. They made huge sacrifices (and recently, many of those SEALs paid the ultimate price) and while I thank Obama for approving that mission, that's all he did. He did not kill Osama, and he didn't make the sacrifices leading up to that kill and continuing after it. That's why I am fiercely defensive of anyone who wants to steal credit from the people to whom it is due.

QUOTE (farmteam @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 09:13 PM) This is sort of what I figured, but from what I gather from your posts, you don't respect Obama. Without respect, it's pretty damn hard to lead a military (or anything else). Is it the respect for the office, then? Because while I understand that distinction, I think often that the respect for an office should reflect at least somewhat on its holder. It is respect for the office. He's the CiC whether we like it or not. That's really all I've got.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 09:00 PM) eh, it was a kind of snarky remark on my part (shocking) and i could've just left it out. it's basically about a military court martial where the commanding officer at guantanamo defends certain military practices that led to a soldiers death, but that he claims are necessary to make the unit as a whole stronger. ie: good of the whole at the expense of the weak kind of thing. Paints things like codes of honor to be ways of manipulation etc. at the end of the day though, as you obviously well know, the truth is that in order for your units to operate effectively, there need to be things like codes that you adhere to - and a certain amount of blind faith is part of the job description. so go ahead and do your damnedest serving our country, and wait till your done to watch it. Yeah, I've seen the movie. And while he gives lots of lip service to it, there is nothing remotely honorable about Jack Nicholson's character. We have chapters (aka motions to eliminate a Soldier from the military) for a reason. Poor Soldiers don't need to be murdered. And as a note, I know that wasn't your point and I know you weren't comparing me to Nicholson's character. I know your point was to show that catch phrases can be misused and manipulated. And that's true, and it's a shame too.

QUOTE (farmteam @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:53 PM) Flysox (or whatever your name is today), I do have a legitimate question for you. Obama is your Commander-in-Chief, right? If he walked up to you right now in his official capacity and gave you an order, you'd have to follow it, correct? From what I understand, grousing about the incompetency of one's superiors is quite commonplace in the military, much like in any organization or company. But if I'm in another organization where I vehemently disagree with everything my superiors are saying -- not just thinking they're incompetent, but that they are actively making bad decisions and making it an organization I don't want to be a part of -- then I leave that organization. Plain and simple. Because of this, I'm having a very hard time reconciling how you can apparently loathe everything about the upper apparatus or your organization (military and government), yet still actively be a part of it. Perhaps you can elaborate on this for me? That's a respectable question. As you know, I'm a very opinionated person. I'm also not a big fan of Obama. And to to tell you the truth, not a lot of people in the military are. Maybe the POGs (people other than grunts) are slightly more liberal, but not the combat dudes. We are one of the greatest bastions of conservatism in America. However, any good Soldier knows he's the boss. And we will obey his orders or the military will eliminate us. So when I go there, politics must remain separate. Yeah, we tell our conservative jokes and make politically conservative small talk, but if an order is given to us and we say, "well, Obama's a jackass, so...NO", we won't be long for the military. In fact, there was recently a LTC who refused to deploy until Obama showed his birth certificate. He did several months in jail, and deservedly so. That is mutiny and has no place in the organization. And sure, you might ask why I stay. And that's because my belief in American greatness is stronger, far stronger, than my disagreements with Obama's philosophies. LTC = Lieutenant Colonel BTW, so that guy probably had at least 15 years put in, and those years were completely wasted by his inability to abide by the simply guidelines I laid forward in this post. A shame.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:48 PM) so then... to whom DO you lend your support? In 2012, assuming no big changes, my ballot will say Rick Perry/Allen West. Both are veterans. I will not vote for someone who hasn't served.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:40 PM) if that's the case then thanks for your service. really do mean that. but if you ever get a chance to see "A Few Good Men" I'd recommend taking a watch. Thank you. In spite of our differences, I sincerely appreciate you being able to say that. As for A Few Good Men, I have seen it. Not sure what you're getting at.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:39 PM) And yet you'll blindly support all the douche bag, right-wing, draft dodging, chicken hawks with haste. When have I done that? I hate Romney and his kids, I couldn't care less about GWB, and there's no other chickenhawk that I would ever support. Draft dodging, chickenhawking, those are absolute no-goes. Think whatever you want of me, but I despise chickenhawks.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:33 PM) you know what would have been really honorable of you? if you'd gone ahead and enlisted and led the charge against those bastards that took down our chopper. but ya didn't. you posted on an internet forum instead. I'm in the infantry, you arrogant ass.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:28 PM) oh dear. ok... let's break this down. Navy SEALs killed Osama. Obama did not do that. Disrespect towards the military? How about confusing Medal of Honor winners SFC Jared Monti and SSG Sal Giunta? And then not referring to them by their ranks? That's just one, and you'll think it's small because you're a raging leftist who hasn't served. To me and to my brothers in arms, that's not small.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 08:27 PM) I'm laughing at you, not whining. I wish you could see how much I care.