VAfan

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:07 PM) Too bad we only have him for one more. And no, contract extension talks with Garland are basically f***ed. On what basis do you make this claim? The Sox never actually go to arbitration with their players. I'm sure we'll keep talking with Garland's agent. For the right price, who says Garland wouldn't return?

What gets me is that most of you fans think Jon Garland is a mediocre pitcher. He was clearly better than Freddie Garcia last year, better than Jose Contreras over the whole year, and won more games than our most consistent pitcher, Mark Buehrle. If he makes any kind of improvement a year after getting it - and that is why AGE MATTERS, at 26 I would expect him to continue to make some significant improvements in his ability to locate his pitches - then he has the potential to be the most consistent pitcher on the current Sox staff over the next 6 years. You know, the Cubs decided they couldn't match what Greg Maddux wanted, either. I'm not saying that Garland is Greg Maddux. But now that Garland has vaulted himself into the top-20 pitchers in baseball, I expect he will stay there into his early 30's at least. And look how many division titles Maddux helped the Braves win. You can't convince me that Javier Vazquez, Freddie Garcia, Jose Contreras, or Brandon McCarthy are going to be as consistent over the next 6 years as Jon Garland. Mark Buehrle, yes. The rest? No. So why cast our lot with second-tier guys and heap nothing but scorn on the guy who was essentially tied for being our best pitcher last year. (Win shares: Buehrle 23, Garland 22.) And everyone assumes that Garland can't be re-signed. I don't buy that either. He rejected the Sox first offer. So what? Until arbitration arrives, I'm sure he'll be willing to talk about a deal.

Over and over I read these posts tossing off a trade of Jon Garland as if it would be a good thing for the White Sox. I don't get it. Jon Garland won 18 games for the Sox last year, tied for the 5th most wins in MLB. The next best Sox pitcher won 16. His ERA was 3.50, 21st in baseball. Only Mark Buehrle bested this (3.12, 11th). His WHIP was 1.17, 12th in baseball, and best on the Sox. Even Mark Buehrle couldn't match that. He pitched 221 innings, 20th in baseball. Mark Buehrle, at 236, and Freddy Garcia, at 228, bested this slightly. He threw 3 complete game shutouts. Only Buehrle threw even a single shutout, with one. His complete game against the Angels may have been the best pitched game by any of our starters in the postseason (it was a fair match for Buehrle's 1-run complete game in game 2). He is 26 years old. Buehrle is 6 months older. Garcia is 29. Contreras is 34. Vasquez is the same age as Garcia. And he did all this in large part because he finally learned to speed up his delivery and throw strikes, emulating Mark Buehrle very well in the process. AJ Pierzynski also helped by calling an aggressive game. So now that Garland has apparently turned the corner on his career (do you want to see what Kevin Brown did after he got it? - from 27-34 he won 122 games, even though he was hurt two of those years), why do so many Sox fans on this board (and the other boards) just want to dump him???? I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here. In the next 6 years, I think Jon Garland will win more games than any current starter on the Sox' staff, including Mark Buehrle (though it will be very close). The guy is a solid pitcher. Why would anyone want to let him go, much less push him out the door??

Remember, his good stats were in the National League. Anything in the mid-3's in that league becomes a 4+ ERA in the AL with the DH. And I haven't compared Arizona to the Cell, but I'm sure our ballpark isn't going to help his stats. He gives up a LOT of long balls. 68 in 2 years?? Is that right?? Personally, I'm not sold yet.

I voted "terrible." The problem is that "wait and see" could make it worse. Does anyone think Javier Vasquez is half the pitcher Jon Garland is? I don't. In fact, I think it is pretty clear that Javier Vasquez isn't a match for any of our top 5 pitchers, including Brandon McCarthy. He was 11-15 in the National League, which always improves pitchers' numbers because they don't have to pitch to a DH. And to give up Chris Young??????????? He was the only outfield prospect in our system that I thought would become a highly skilled player -- someone who could hold down a 3-5 slot in our future lineups. I don't think Brian Anderson has a prayer of being that player, and Jerry Owens is a no-power speedster who may replace Pods some day, but isn't the complete player Young was. Not only did Young have speed and power, he also had plate discipline, something that Anderson lacks completely. If KW now turns around and trades 18-game winner 26-year old Jon Garland then he will have made things worse. The only way I could stomach this is if Vasquez is gone for a star outfielder. But then we will have sent our starter insurance out and could be left with the 5th-starter blues that sunk us in 2001-2004 if any one of our starters goes down. And we'll still be an arm short in the bullpen.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 8, 2005 -> 08:02 PM) I'd bet my kidney that Timo is here next year. Really? He was the only member of the Group 4 guys who made no contribution in the postseason. Harris scored the only run in the WS clinching game. Blum hit the game-winning HR in the 3rd WS game. Widger walked to drive in the other run in that inning. Ozuna stole second and scored after AJ stole first in game 2 against the Angels. Timo was out in his only plate appearance.

With the Mack trade today, it is likely Willie Harris will be gone. But why heap scorn on the guy who scored the only run in our WS clinching victory? The guy was a valuable utility man in 2005. When he came back from AAA, he had a very high OBP and helped us in September. If you needed a stolen base, Willie was our best bet. (I remember one game he won pinch running for Frank Thomas.) If the guy is given a full-time shot somewhere, he's not that different than Juan Pierre, who many on this site drool over. (Not me.) So, say sayonara to Willie, but don't kick him on the way out.

This is a great move on several fronts. 1. Goodbye Marte. Can't we all recite horror stories of Marte coming into games? How about Ozzie summoning him for the 3rd game against Boston. Nixon singles, followed by walks to Mueller and Olerud to load the bases in a 1-rum game. Or the game when he hit the two lefties he faced? Etc., etc., etc. The guy has tremendous "stuff" but he wasn't going to harness it for us any more, and I was tired of watching Ozzie use him in situations when anyone else from our pen would have been a better choice. 2. Goodbye Timo. Another Ozzie favorite who got way more than his share of ABs last year. Yes he won one game against the Angels with a pinch hit in the 9th, but otherwise he never should have seen the field. 3. Insurance for the inevitable Anderson slumps. Anderson's first 34 ABs don't give me great confidence that he can be a full-time CF this year. We needed a backup plan other than Jerry Owens and Chris Young (and I suppose Joe Borchard). Mackowiak should allow Ozzie to rest Anderson against tough right handers, especially early in the season. 4. Insurance for Crede's back. Mackowiak will likely help rest Crede at least once a week. By sitting him against some right handers, this might also help keep Crede out of his horrific slumps. 5. A legit lefty pinch hitter. If Mack isn't in the starting lineup, he offers a very good lefty pinch hitting option for Anderson, Uribe, or even Tadahito. In interleague games, he'll have other pinch hitting opptys. 6. Lefty backup for Tadahito. Mackowiak will also get some time at 2B against right handers, as Ozuna doesn't hit righties well at all. With Timo gone, the guy on the bubble is Willie Harris. He'll almost certainly be gone because he didn't prove he can play SS. It's too bad, as Harris is much better defensively at 2B than Tadahito or Mackowiak or even Ozuna. And he has more speed than anyone on the team, even Pods. The bench is now Widger, Mackowiak, and Ozuna, with slots for 1 or 2 more guys, depending on whether we carry 12 pitchers. Personally, until we got Mackowiak, I was wondering if Jose Valentin would be ready to slip into a utility role for the infield. And I still wonder if he wouldn't be a better backup for Uribe/Iguchi than Ozuna is. Probably not, because Ozuna has value as a righty backup to Pods in LF. And certainly Jose would want a lot more money than Ozuna makes. So I'm satisfied with Mack.

I didn't realize he had signed, obviously. It was hardly a pointless plea, however. Do all of you really think Brian Anderson is ready to be a productive full time CF for the Sox in 2006? What part of 12Ks and no walks in 34 ABs do you like? Or would you rather spend most of the money it would have taken to get a productive Giles to add Juan Pierre, whose RC27 number was worse than Rowand's, and would take valuable prospects to pry him from the Marlins? Right now, I'm not sure who the Sox should sign for the outfield, but I would bet that Joe Borchard can hit as well as Brian Anderson, and that's not saying much. I guess my best hope is that Jerry Owens or Chris Young can win the CF job in spring training, and the Sox will be open to bringing up the best of those 3 to start the season.

I'm thrilled the Sox re-signed PK for the relative bargain of $12 million/year. Let's hope he remains healthy throughout and continues to improve his hitting the way he has for the last couple of years (by not chasing pitches out of the zone). Between him and Thome, they have 1B/DH covered for the next 3 years. But the Sox shouldn't call it an offseason just yet. We still have an open outfield position with only very unproven rookies to fill it. Why not let one of those rookies -- Brian Anderson -- develop as a 4th outfielder the same way Aaron Rowand developed, and give AA players Jerry Owens and Chris Young a year at AAA to sharpen their skills? If the Sox want to solidify their offense and give themselves the best chance of repeating as WS champs in 2006, they should sign the best available free agent outfielder - BRIAN GILES. By re-signing Konerko, the Sox have already replaced Everett with Thome at DH. That should add 40 runs to the Sox offense. (Everett created 65.2 runs for the Sox (4.48 RC27); Thome in 2004 when healthy created 114.7 runs for the Phillies (8.05 RC27); you have to adjust, however, b/c Everett didn't play full time.) If the Sox added Giles for LF and moved Pods back to CF, they could add another 40 runs. (Giles created 116 runs for the Padres last year (7.68 RC27) - 13th in baseball and ahead of PK, even with a terrible hitters park at home; Rowand created 76 runs for the Sox (4.54 RC27) - 99th in baseball.) If, instead, the Sox use Anderson or Jerry Owens in CF, there is little doubt that neither will be able to even match Rowand's limited production in their first full year. The result would be a Sox offense with a boost by inserting Thome for Everett, but an offensive subtraction by inserting Anderson/Owens for Rowand. Doesn't it make sense to try to increase rather than decrease the offensive production now that there is an opening in the outfield? There would still be plenty of work for a 4th outfielder (with Perez gone) like Anderson, while Owens and Chris Young could move up to AAA. Anderson could get 200+ ABs subbing for Pods against lefties, and giving a rest to Giles and Dye. He would also get into a lot of games as a LIDP. The Sox would have transformed their offense from one with a terrible on base percentage, to one that can get on base and slug with the most offensive minded teams, without sacrificing the ability to manufacture runs. And they would have great R/L balance. This my dream lineup for 2006: L Pods CF R Iguchi 2B L Giles LF R Konerko 1B L Thome DH R Dye RF L Pierzynski C R Crede 3B R Uribe SS A lineup with Anderson instead might only be 25 runs better than last year, with Thome's +40 negated by Anderson's -15, and that's if we're lucky and Anderson doesn't turn into a second coming of Joe Borchard. (After all, he did hit only .179 and struck out 12 times in 34 ABs, with 0 walks.) The Sox used the addition of Thome to persuade Paulie to come back. Why not use both to persuade Giles that his best chance at a WS ring in on the south side? I would certainly like our chances a whole lot more with Giles' .400 OBP in the lineup than Anderson's zero walks and 34% strikeout rate.

QUOTE(WinninUgly @ Nov 27, 2005 -> 06:01 PM) There are a ton of scenarios, so I will list a couple: If no more acquisitions: 1. Platoon Thome (mainly DH) and Dye at first with Gload, add or bring up another OF. Not optimal. If acquiring another player: 1. Sign Giles for OF, with Dye, Thome, and Gload at first (mainly Thome - DH, Dye - 1B) 2. Make trade with Brewers for Overbay, since they only want a pitcher (Hernandez or Marte). They inquired about McGowan from Toronto? 3. Sign Olerud for 1B and spell him with Dye and Gload as needed. 4. Make Marte for Pierre trade and move Dye to 1B. 5. Sign Piazza or Durazo as DH, or just bring back Everett to get Carl numbers. Longshot: 1. If healthy, re-sign Frank as DH if Thome can play 1B about 75% of the time. There are very few scenarios that make the Sox better off without Paulie. I would say the Giles one would be the closest one for debate. Maybe the Overbay one as well when you consider we have Thome. If you project Thome to put up Paulie numbers (40/100), then the player acquired would have to put up at least Everett numbers which Giles does easily, and Overbay (19/72) is capable of. The concerns are can Thome play 1B for 120 games or so if the Sox don't acquire an everyday 1B. I would rather not have this discussion and just sign Paulie. When that happens the Sox are a Top 5 team offensively. Couple that with a Top 5 pitching team and they are going to be hard to beat. I think you may be the only other person to suggest Giles as the first option if PK walks. I would sign Giles to play LF, move Pods to CF, and keep Dye in RF. Anderson would replace Perez on the roster as the backup to all three outfield slots, where he would get into most games against lefties and 200+ ABs overall. He would also be the LIDP for Pods, with Pods either sliding to LF or being taken out. I would then re-sign Frank Thomas to an incentive laden one-year deal where he would earn something like an extra million for each 100 PAs over 300. Thome would be the primary 1B, though I would train Jermaine Dye to back him up and keep someone like Ross Gload on the roster. If Frank can contribute even 80% of his career norms, this would be the lineup: Pods CF/LF Iguchi 2B Giles LF/CF/RF Thomas DH Thome 1B/DH Dye RF Pierzynski C Crede 3B Uribe SS We'd have lefties in the 1, 3, 5, and 7 holes, three guys in the middle with .400 OBPs and .500+ SLG averages, and two guys at the bottom who are due to start carrying their September-October production into a whole season. I would bet that lineup would score up to 100 more runs than last year's team. Bench would be: Widger, Harris, Ozuna, Anderson, Gload (or other 1B). If PK comes back, then Thome is DH and Frank is gone (to Cleveland?). You could theoretically still sign Giles, but the Sox aren't going to invest that kind of money. Instead, CF becomes wide open for Anderson/Owens/Young to compete. If one of them was ready, I'd be fine with that move depending on how much PK will require. At some point he won't be worth the money.

What is laughable is that no one responding to this thread backed up their statements with any meaningful analysis. Brian Giles had a higher RC number and a higher RC27 number than Paul Konerko last year even though he played half his games in cavernous San Diego, where his OPS languished at .795. On the road, it was more than 1.0. His OBP will be around .400. He's left handed. He can play all three outfield positions, and presumably DH. He's likely available for at least $4-5 million per year LESS than Paul Konerko. He allows us to bring back Frank Thomas if he's healthy (whereas Konerko and Thome would swallow up all the 1B/DH ABs for the year). It is also laughable that some of you think Brian Anderson is going to be a full-time major league player in 2006. What part of 12Ks in 34 ABs or his .176 avg. do you like? Is there anything else you have to go on other than guesswork? His AAA numbers? Even those weren't all that good. I would take Anderson over Timo Perez as a 4th outfielder and LIDP if we did sign Giles. But I wouldn't count on him to be an everyday starter. The only thing he's got on Joe Borchard is that he hasn't proven himself to be a bust yet. I know Giles isn't on the Sox' radar. But he should be. And from what I read he wants to play for a team that will consistently contend. So why not the Sox? Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Ken Griffey wasn't on KW's radar now. Of course trading for Griffey would be foolish if you could have Giles for less money and have to give up no players in return.

I think a very strong case could be made that AJ Pierzynski was the best FA signing of last off season -- by ANY TEAM. As for Crede, I think the back issues give KW leverage to get a reasonable price from Scott Boras. And I think this has to be the year to strike. As someone said, after he came off the DL, he started hitting much better, and carried it all the way through the postseason, where he was arguably our MVP. If he can avoid his slump months, the guy is going to hit 30 HRs, and then he'll be too pricey. Sign him now. Garland, as well, is a must. He's only going to get better.

When were Gio and Haigwood going to crack our rotation, exactly? Certainly not next year. This is certainly a good deal for the Phillies, who add a proven CF and young pitching. But it is also a good deal for the White Sox. Thome gives us lefty power with a high OBP. When was the last time we had such a player? Sure, there is injury risk, but it is also a risk to re-sign Paul Konerko for $13+ million/year. Moving Rowand actually opens up some very good possibilities for the Sox. As I've said elsewhere, I think the Sox should sign Brian Giles and move Pods to CF. This would give us a second high OBP lefty and allow us to say bye bye to Paul Konerko. No one on the team would get more than $10 million/year. (Giles could be had for $8-9 million/year probably.) We could then use the $4-5 million difference between Giles and Konerko to re-sign Frank Thomas and still have money left over. Sox would have a middle of the order with three guys who can get on base 40% of the time. That's a dramatic offensive upgrade. Granted, our defense wouldn't be as sharp, but we could have LIDPs for CF and 1B.

Now's also the time for the Sox to sign up Crede, Garland, and Pierzynski for another 3 years. Crede, with Scott Boras as his agent, could be difficult to deal with if we wait until he has a breakout year to sign. He's clearly had breakout months. He's proven his postseason worth. But he has health issues and consistency issues that keep his value suppressed. Now's the time to lock him up for at least the next 3 years to a reasonable contract, with an option for a 4th year if he's agreeable. I can see Crede hitting: 35 HRs, with a .280 avg. at some point. He exceeds those numbers during several months of the season, but can't sustain it. Once he starts to sustain it, he's going to be one of the best 3Bs in baseball. Garland should also be kept for another 3 years. We're going to have to deal with Contreras, Buehrle, and Garcia in coming years. Now's the time to lock up Garland so we don't have to worry about him too next year. AJ Pierzynski may have been the Sox' MVP. Without him, does anyone think Garland would have come around so well? What role did he have in the improvements of Cotts or Politte? He calls a tremendous game, he's a lefty with some pop, and he's got a killer attitude. With no other catchers anywhere on the horizon, we need to lock him up too.

I posted this on the 700-post Thome trade thread, but think it is worth a discussion on its own. My initial reaction on seeing Thome for Rowand in my morning paper here in N. Va. was oh no. But then I read that the Sox were getting $22 million toward's Thome's contract, and my reaction changed. Here's what I would do with that $22 million if I were Kenny Williams. SIGN BRIAN GILES Face it, Brian Anderson and his 12 K's in 34 ABs is not ready to replace Aaron Rowand in CF. And Chris Young, the likely long term answer, is probably not ready for 2006. Jerry Owens? Intriguing, but you can't count on him being ready either. (Please don't add light hitting Juan Pierre. We have a clone of Pierre already in Willie Harris.) The best move for the Sox would be to go after Giles. This would allow us to bring up one of the kids (to replace Timo Perez) and give them some time in the outfield without having to count on them at all during the season if they aren't ready. Podsednik or Giles in CF is a big defensive dropoff from Aaron Rowand, but the offense from Giles should more than counterbalance that. And if one of the kids is ready, then Giles can rotate between all the outfield slots and DH. Moreover, if you add Giles for about $25 million over 3 years, you could also bring back Frank Thomas with an incentive-laden deal to be the primary DH. The cost of both of them would likely be less than what PK is going to get from someone. This would be the Sox lineup (or you could flip Thome and Giles): Pods - CF/LF Iguchi - 2B Giles - CF/LF/RF Thomas - DH Thome - 1B Dye - RF Crede - 3B (due for a breakout year, Sox need to sign him now for 3 years) Pierzynski - C Uribe - SS Not only would we have the best pitching in the AL, but if this lineup could stay healthy, we'd be able to hit and slug with anyone. Giles, Thomas, and Thome each are capable of .400 OBP and .500+ slugging. And Giles has as many steals as Rowand has had, so we're not really losing much speed (sure Thomas is slower than Everett). Plus, for the first time in a long time the Sox would have two left handed high OBP, high slugging hitters. (And Giles would not be a roadblock to bringing up the kids. After Dye's contract expires, you could slide Giles to RF and move Young into CF. Frankly, I don't think Brian Anderson is ever going to be better than a 4th or 5th outfielder.) I say, GO FOR IT. GO SOX!! BACK TO BACK!!!

After almost 700 posts on this, I'm going to add my two cents. My initial reaction on seeing Thome for Rowand in my morning paper here in N. Va. was oh no. But then I read that the Sox were getting $22 million toward's Thome's contract, and my reaction changed. Here's what I would do with that $22 million if I were Kenny Williams. SIGN BRIAN GILES Face it, Brian Anderson and his 12 K's in 34 ABs is not ready to replace Aaron Rowand in CF. And Chris Young is probably not ready for 2006. Jerry Owens? Intriguing, but you can't count on him being ready either. The best move for the Sox would be to go after Giles. This would allow us to bring up one of the kids and give them some time in the outfield without having to count on them at all during the season if they aren't ready. Podsednik or Giles in CF is a big defensive dropoff from Aaron Rowand, but the offense from Giles should more than counterbalance that. And if one of the kids is ready, then Giles can rotate between all the outfield slots and DH. Moreover, if you add Giles for about $25 million over 3 years, you could also bring back Frank Thomas with an incentive-laden deal. This would be the Sox lineup: Pods - CF/LF Iguchi - 2B Giles - CF/LF Thomas - DH Thome - 1B Dye - RF Crede - 3B (due for a breakout year, Sox need to sign him now for 3 years) Pierzynski - C Uribe - SS Not only would we have the best pitching in the AL, but if this lineup could stay healthy, we'd be able to slug with anyone. Giles, Thomas, and Thome each are capable of .400 OBP and .500+ slugging. And Giles has as many steals as Rowand has had, so we're not really losing much speed (sure Thomas is slower than Everett). Plus, for the first time in a long time the Sox would have two left handed high OBP, high slugging hitters. I say, GO FOR IT. GO SOX!! BACK TO BACK!!!

QUOTE(JimH @ Nov 19, 2005 -> 03:06 AM) Good Lord man, put the Giles drum away. You have only mentioned this about 100 times already, he is gonna cost a 3 year deal at probably $25 million minimum. Meaning, not modestly priced. Three years at $25 million is very modestly priced for a #3, #4, or #5 hitter who can play all three outfield positions and whose power numbers the last two years are suppressed by playing in San Diego. Giles would be our best outfielder, and possibly our best hitter depending on whether Frank Thomas is back. He had more runs created than Paul Konerko last year (116 v. 114) even though he played half his games in San Diego, where his offensive production was suppressed. He had a better RC27 number too (7.68 v. 7.27). Indeed, Giles ranked 13th and 12th in baseball in these categories, yet he posted only a modest .795 OPS at home versus 1.008 on the road. In the Cell, he might not return to his 4-year stretch of 35+ HRs, but I bet he'd get back to 30 HRs, without losing his ability to get on base. I'm really tired of you writing these BS responses to my posts when you don't do your baseball homework. This is the list of guys with better RC27 numbers than Giles last year. Derrek Lee, Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Todd Helton, Jason Giambi, Travis Hafner, David Ortiz, Jason Bay, Carlos Delgado, Vladimir Guerrero, Manny Ramirez. Do you think you could get any of those guys for 3-years $25 million if they were free agents?

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Nov 14, 2005 -> 05:25 PM) How exactly does $12-$18 mil combined savings over 3 years allow you to resign Jon and A.J.? That's probably enough for one or the other, definitely not both. Considering the market for starting pitching, that might not even be enough for Garland. I find the whole argument somewhat pointless because the chances of the Sox getting either player are slim and none in my opinion. Both are very expensive players that play in the outfield, which is probably the deepest position in the organization right now. Does it really make sense to commit over $30 mil and 3 years to two guys well past 30 (Abreu will be for the life of the deal) when we have several young guys that could come up and contribute soon, plus all of our current starters signed at affordable prices for the next year? Does it really make sense to pay that much for a DH? I'd rather see us go for more affordable guys at DH that can also play 1B at times, something we might need in the near future. Frank and Durazo make the most sense among FA's, and trading for Delgado, Thome, or Helton makes more sense if we're going to give up talent and eat some money. All of them are probably bigger impact hitters when healthy than Giles or Abreu, especially if fielding isn't an issue. The $12-18 million is more than enough because you have to include what they made last year as a baseline figure. As for who we should have as a DH, last year it was Carl Everett, who played the outfield when he played at all. That was important. None of our young outfielders are ready to play any significant time, and I would send Anderson back to AAA for more seasoning. He struck out 12 times in 34 trips to the plate. That's worse than Timo Perez, who should definitely not be back. My choice to replace Everett's slot would be a left-handed hitting outfielder who has a high on-base percentage, good power, does not clog up the basepaths, and can play all three outfield positions. He would give us complete insurance if Pods, Rowand, or Dye went down, and allow Ozzie to rest all three. And for the longer term, remember that Dye is only signed for 2006, and I don't think Pods is going to have a long career when it doesn't seem like he can keep his wheels sharp for even an entire season. Brian Giles would be modestly priced, but would fit the Sox perfectly.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 13, 2005 -> 11:38 PM) What you're saying is it's ok to add a big salary like Giles but not Abreu? [though Giles should get a 3 yr $30 mill deal. Abreu would be locked up for 2 yrs at $28 mill. so it's a wash cash wise. But signing a 34 yr old to a 3 yr deal like Giles more than goes against your point that adding Abreu would hurt the sox. Bobby for two yrs would probably be more productive than a guy in his mid 30's playing for 3 yrs] It's basically a matter of preference. CAses could be made for either. But the sox could add abreu or Giles and it wouldn't effect the sox ability to keep Crede, Jon ,or AJ. Abreu costs $48 million for 3 years. Giles couldn't cost more than $30 million for three years, and would probably cost closer to $27 million. How does that become a wash, cash wise??? For that "wash" I can sign Jon Garland for 2 extra years, plus pay him what he's worth this coming year. I can also lock up AJ Pierzynski for 3 years. And I might still have money left over to sign Joe Crede for a few years. Plus, I would have given up no current players to add Giles. I don't see why you think it is harder to sign a Free Agent than to trade for a player. Do you have any idea what the Phillies would demand for Abreu? Giles is ready to sign at any time. He says he wants to play for a contender. We've never been able to sell World Series Champions to any free agents before. And with our pitching, you have to like our chances to repeat.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 12, 2005 -> 09:59 PM) In 6 of the last 8 yrs Abreu's OPS was over .900 [and was pretty close those other two]. So that's not really fair What he brings [high OBP, power, speed ,avg, a #3 hitter] the sox could use. And the pieces it would take to get him wouldn't effect the short or long term ability for the sox to win $30 million for two years, or $48 million for 3 years. Bobby Abreu isn't anywhere close to being worth that. Wake up Sox fans. How did we win this year? By jettisoning the overpriced guys and filling the roster holes with solid players. Now you want to go back to sinking the roster with guys who make way too much money for what they bring to the table? Sure, Giles is not as good as Abreu straight up. But that isn't the proper comparison. First, Giles is a Free Agent, so we don't have to give anyone up to sign him. Second, Giles would come for at least $10 million less over two years than Abreu. So here's the comparison. Giles, Jon Garland, AJ Pierzynski, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand + Marte >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bobby Abreu It would take at LEAST Rowand and Marte to get Abreu in trade. For the $12 million you save between Giles and Abreu, I can take that money, add it to current salaries, and re-sign Jon Garland for two years, plus pay for AJ Pierzynski's and Joe Crede's salary increases. Last year, it wasn't Lee for Pods and Vizcaino. It was Lee for Pods, Vizcaino, El Duque, and Pierzynski.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Nov 12, 2005 -> 09:35 PM) Bobby Abreu is a great baseball player. He is as many would call a "five tool player". Imagine a better Magglio Ordonez, Abreu is better defensively than him + a better arm. Bobby has a little less consistent power than Ordonez but makes up with for it with great SB numbers. He consistently puts up 30sb/25hr/100rbi/.300/.400/.500/.900 '06 - $13M '07 - $15M '08 - $16Mteam $2Mbuyout. How is this too much for a player of his caliber? Take a look at his numbers, his contact is not too expensive. Money could also come over from Philly with him if the right players were sent to the Phillies for him. Delgado is due similar money over the next few seasons as Abreu. It really depends o what you want, if Ozzie really wants more speed, he could get 30SB out of the 3 hole with Abreu. Delgado does not bring you any speed. As I said to Rowand44, if you want Abreu's numbers, why not sign Free Agent Brian Giles, who has actually had years when he hit more then 35 HRs, and who is obviously hampered playing in SD (look at his home and away splits last year - he's still above a 1.0 OPS on the road). Giles was offered $21 million over 3 years by SD. I'm sure he won't take it, but I'm also pretty confident that he could be had for $8-9 million/year over 3 years. Then you get a high-OBP left handed outfielder who can play all 3 outfield positions, but you don't have to give up any productive players in return. All while saving more than $10 million over the next two years. What will that $10 million buy you? An extension for Jon Garland at least, plus the increased salary for AJ Pierzynski and Joe Crede. Think with your brains. I'd take Abreu if he were a free agent for $10-12 million a year. In a trade, he's not worth that much.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Nov 12, 2005 -> 07:57 PM) Lets see, he's a 25 homer/100 rbi/.400 obp/30 steal guy, he's that left handed bat all of us have wanted for a while and he plays a solid right field. He would be such a perfect 3 hitter....I would absolutely love to have Bobby on this team. He's just not worth $15 million/year. Hell, his OPS wasn't even .900 last year. For my money, I'd sign Brian Giles, who you could get for $8-9 million/year. He's not as young as Abreu, but he can play all 3 outfield positions and hits just about as well as Abreu. Plus, you don't have to give up any players to get him.

Why all the love for Abreu? He's a very good ballplayer, but he's way overpriced. $29 million over the next two years, plus a $2 million buyout (instead of another $16 million in 2008). That's obscene. If Abreu were a free agent, this would be too much money. To take it on and still give them a quality player like Aaron Rowand plus a pitcher makes it worse. For $10-12 million/year as a free agent, Abreu would be a very nice fit for the Sox. He could take Everett's slot and be a very big upgrade. I'm sure Ozzie and he would get along very well. All of this also applies to Carlos Delgado who hits better than Abreu but is due $44 million over the next 3 years.

We are planning to meet at Buffalo Billiards in DC (19th St. just below DuPont Circle) for tonight's game. It may be hard to top our Saturday gathering, which was attended by about 40 Sox fans, but it should be great fun. Reply if you think you might come.