BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Why Sox should allocated 20% of the payroll to Fatolo? What has he done in 2003 (against supremely weakass ALC hitting) that suggests he is worth 15% of the payroll, let alone 20? And if you say he still throws as hard as ever, I will fgsgsd you in your sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Simply put, they shouldn't. The issue is, the White Sox need a front of the rotation stud, just like every other team. Has Colon proven he could be that guy, in the past? Yes. Did he do it last year with the White Sox? No. He may be the best option out there in terms of a guy who can be (or is) a legitimate #1, and a guy that's available to the White Sox. On the other hand, I'm sure Sox management is exploring other avenues since there's certainly no guarantee Colon will re-sign. If this team has aspirations of making the playoffs and going deep in the playoffs, in my opinion a #1 of Mark Buehrle and a #2 of Esteban Loaiza doesn't cut it. And in today's baseball economics, those #1 starters get obscene amounts of $. If it's me, I'd rather have Millwood than Colon, but Millwood isn't gonna sign here, I'm pretty sure his agent is S.B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I'll rehash my summer argument with Ncorgbl here: Bartolo is EXACTLY the same pitcher he has been throughout his career. He is NOT, nor has he ever been, a front-of-the-rotation stud like Schilling, Pedro, Clemens, etc. He won 20 games 2 years ago with almost the same numbers(ERA, K's, WHIP) that he did last season. So much else goes into a pitcher getting a 'W' that you can't predict it year-to-year, nor can you really judge how well a pitcher performs based on that stat. Javier Vazquez was something like 13-12 last year, danny Wright had 14-15 wins in 2002. Who would you rather have in your rotation? Bartolo is worth what the Sox are offering. That is his fair market value, IMO. He's always healthy, gives you many quality starts, and eats a ton of innings. The fact that he would be 20% of the Sox's payroll is JR's problem, not Bart's. I highly doubt you'll find many pitchers out there who would perform better and make less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Considering the payroll restrictions, Colon is the "best bang for the buck." Sure, it would be nice to go out and get some stud pitchers, but we can't afford them monetarily, and we are running out of prospects to trade for them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I highly doubt you'll find many pitchers out there who would perform better and make less. MB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Has Colon proven he could be that guy, in the past? Yes. In his 7 years in the league he's been that type of pitcher only ONCE, in 2002!!! Do we need Shilling-type pitcher to our ace in the playoffs? OF COURSE! That's why Sox should wait until August waive deadline-- remember, 8 Mill spent in August buy you close to 30 MILLION worth of talent. I am talking about Kevin Brown AND Pudge Rodrquez or whatever other combination suits us best. But we may never get to the point where we'll make playoffs without 4.00 ERA Colon's help you say? Well, that means we suck in so many other repsects, may as well forget about postseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Bartolo is worth what the Sox are offering Based on his intristic value (believe it or not, some of us don't buy into the price-inflating hype and market trends) as a pitcher, Colon is MAYBE worth 7-8 Mill a year. I am being generous. He, along with Millwood, Ponson and Vazquez, can suck a nut. I'd rather have Rauch give me a 4.35 ERA (if a breaking-down Parqua could do it in 2000, so can Jon-Jon) at 300K than Bartolo 3.85 at 11-12 Mill.....And use that 10-11 Mill difference to load up on on HUGE TALENT with 5-6 weeks to go in the season at a PRORATED cost. That is, IF Sox are in the first place. If not, might as well keep the money for 2005. But that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Well, good in theory to wait until August to pick up the big name talent. Problem is, other contenders are gonna do that too. It's not as easy as you make it sound. Colon did pretty well in some other seasons besides 2002, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 Colon did pretty well in some other seasons besides 2002, by the way. That kind of "pretty well" is worth 6-7 Mill. 11-12 Mill should be reserved for "stud", espcially when our payroll is barely 50 Mill. As far as picking up talent, it's always available as long as the team is in first place. Throw some A-minus prospects and teams will be knocking on your door offering Jim Edmonds and Kevin Brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 And what A- prospects do we have? I forgot Royce Ring was our last one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Jeremy Reed?? only .409 in AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Well, good in theory to wait until August to pick up the big name talent. Problem is, other contenders are gonna do that too. It's not as easy as you make it sound. Colon did pretty well in some other seasons besides 2002, by the way. Jim, Problem sometimes is... we need to win games in april and May. Therefore we may need a pitcher. Colon is our best option because. Millwood- is represented by Boras Ponson- Is no better than Colon and Colon actaully likes chicago and the friends he has on the team. Maddox- represented by Boras Pettit- Won't even consider us. Colon knows the A league pretty well, chews up innings so we do not need to go to our depleted bullpen.yes he is fat, surlly, can't speak english, but I don't care. i will take him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Brando, that 6-7 million figure may be correct in your mind and my mind, but not with baseball owners, agents, players, and the player association. No one comes with a label of "pretty good" or "stud" either. Things change from year to year, potential comes into play ... as do things we don't know about, like fatigue/arm wear and tear/other injuries. As for talent available by 8/1, it's not as easy as dangling prospects. The money factor is just about always first and foremost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Jeremy Reed?? only .409 in AA He said A- talent, not friggin one of the best prospects this past season in the entire minor leagues. A- is slightly below that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 Brando, that 6-7 million figure may be correct in your mind and my mind, but not with baseball owners, agents, players, and the player association. And if they collude and drive salaries way into high teens, and Sox still have a 55 Mill salary cap, should we spend it all on 3 players? Common, we're already overpaying Magglio, Konerko, Koch, Valentin and are about to overpay for Burhle. Giving Colon much more than 8 Mill a year would be fine if we had a 70 Mill payroll and he was a final piece....BUT it's not and he isn't by a long shot. No one comes with a label of "pretty good" or "stud" either. Things change from year to year, potential comes into play ... as do things we don't know about, like fatigue/arm wear and tear/other injuries. I realize that, and I am not happy with Colon's weight OR his mechanics. As he ages, gets more and more 240-inning seasons under his belt, likelyhood of injury increases. And I don't care what SI/ESPN say, his velocity hasn't been the same since app 2002 ASB, and his slider/curve were smoked out of the park in 2003. I guess he COULD be a good pitcher on a 94-97 fastball, but if it continues to decline, he'll get crushed. And potential? Colon is 32 in 2004. As for talent available by 8/1, More like 8/31 (waiver deadline), but it's all the same. it's not as easy as dangling prospects. The money factor is just about always first and foremost. That's the whole point! The 11.7 Mill you save on pitching Rauch or Diaz or whomever instead Colon, can be spent getting that stud pitcher AND a stud pos player at the deadline (at a fraction of what they would cost over the whole season, naturally) to compete with NY/Bos in the postseason. I mentioned prospects ony because if it comes down to falling just short getting TWO big-time players (ace pitcher is a must) because we are a mil or two short, we can toss them a Wing or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 We basically agree on the premise that Colon isn't worth what they're talking about paying him, but fact is, they haven't gone into a season since 2001 without a guy whom they felt was an ace, and they've paid that guy market value. Even Ritchie, they got him with the thought he could eat big innings. Or, at least showed a willingness to pay that guy's contract for the year, i.e. Wells, Colon. Rauch and Diaz? Well, I'd like to be as optimistic, but if you want to talk about pitchers getting crushed and not being the same, take a look at how many HR's Rauch gives up. Diaz can't stay healthy for a whole year. Make no mistake, I would LOVE for either of these two guys to step up in spring training, but Sox management doesn't appear to be counting on it. And that is the whole point too ... it isn't just the notion of trading prospects, it's about having enough good ones that you can afford to trade some good ones. That's where the Sox have fallen down. All those pitchers they took in '99 and we've gotten precious few contributions from most of them. We can say, well, young pitching gets injured, but if they're all getting injured on White Sox development time, something is wrong. Plus, the downfall of this team has been slow starts. Quickman's post is dead on. They need to have a front line guy to pile up some wins in April and May. I'm not saying it has to be Colon, but like Quick says, who else is it gonna be? Look how long it's taken Garland to get consistent (he still isn't), we're gonna count on Rauch and Pacheco and Diaz, etc. to start being consistent? Maybe, and I hope so, but I kinda doubt it. August 31, August 1, who cares? You said 5-6 weeks left in the season, but like you said, it's all the same anyway. The way the Twins appear to be dismantling, a $55-$60 million payroll should be enough. But we agree to disagree I guess on the need for a #1 innings eater guy, a proven guy. KW has been saying pitching, pitching, pitching. And I really think he wants to go into the season knowing full well who his #1-#5 are, especially with a rookie manager who hasn't handled a pitching staff. That's why I think it's important to get a #1 guy for the start of the season. If it's Colon, it's Colon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastime Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Just get someone who has a proven track record as a big league starter. If we go into the season with the pitching staff as is - we are screwed. Schoenweiss or Wright as our 5th starter? Just shoot me now and put me out of my misery. PATHETIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Now that Coloniks is in arbitration, I hope they give him 7-some mill and I welcome him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Now that Coloniks is in arbitration, I hope they give him 7-some mill and I welcome him back. Keep dreaming....... he'll get his $12 million, or damn close to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Keep dreaming....... he'll get his $12 million, or damn close to it For what?! Near 4.00 ERA despite pitching in one of the weaker-hitting divisions of the decade if not all time? He deserves to LOS a million from last year's salary. In any case, it looks like I am going to be breaking a lot of stuff very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 For what?! Near 4.00 ERA despite pitching in one of the weaker-hitting divisions of the decade if not all time? He deserves to LOS a million from last year's salary. In any case, it looks like I am going to be breaking a lot of stuff very soon. Whatever you or anyone else thinks he deserves means nothing. He will get premium dollars whether you like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Whatever you or anyone else thinks he deserves means nothing. He will get premium dollars whether you like it or not. True. And if Sox start out the season 9-17 because 1) by paying 20+ % of the payroll to Colon they pretty much ensured that Uribe, Rowand, Harris, Adkins start in place of Valentin, Cameron, Robbie and Lightenberg, etc and 2) complacent, overpaid Colon has little incentive to bust his ass and post a sub-4.00 ERA, especially if things go sour.........I will simply not go to or watch a single game for the remainder of the season, also not caring what "anyone else thinks". I believe there a bunch of people like me out there, espcially among the Sox Army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 True. And if Sox start out the season 9-17 because 1) by paying 20+ % of the payroll to Colon they pretty much ensured that Uribe, Rowand, Harris, Adkins start in place of Valentin, Cameron, Robbie and Lightenberg, etc and 2) complacent, overpaid Colon has little incentive to bust his ass and post a sub-4.00 ERA.........I will simply not go to or watch a single game for the remainder of the season, also not caring what "anyone else thinks". I believe there a bunch of people like me out there, espcially among the Sox Army. I am pretty much there. I see about a 6 week period left for the Sox to convince me that they are for real. I already have my Soxfest reservations, and also have my seven game package figured out and ready to fax whenever the ticket prices are announced for single games. If we have made some major moves that show this is a potential division winning team, my Soxfest package is being cancelled, and no ticket request is being sent. Granted in reality it is only maybe $1000 worth of stuff that I am taking out of Jerry and Eddies pockets, by the time tickets, parking and hotel is figured in, but I feel like I won't be alone in this move either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 You know what I realized last year? My principles (and my time) are MUCH more valuable to me than even a White Sox World Series. Not money (and I don't have a lot of it), mind you, but self-respect that comes with saying and doing the right thing. Another off-season/April bulls*** will not be tolerated. I guess I AM growing up afterall, slowly but surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Keep dreaming....... he'll get his $12 million, or damn close to it Yep. When you consider that the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox will spend more on their pitching staffs next year than JR will on his entire team, you can be pretty confident that someone will offer him more than he's worth. How can anyone argue against a salary cap, when the Yankees have a pitching staff payroll of 75 million or so next season, and the Brewers have a payroll of $30 million for the whole team, and trade Sexson because they needed to lower it even further. Regardless of what happens with Colon, I'm inclined to not watch/attend a baseball game next season anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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