Our farm system

[Guest JimH]

Here's a post I found humorous on the official site regarding our farm system. Normally it's worth ignoring most of the posts over there since it's basically a mud slinging contest, but this one about the White Sox farm system caught my eye, especially since it is, in my opinion, so TOTALLY off base. Here it is:

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Name a shortstop produced by the White Sox farm system>

watch tim hummel this year on the reds... he will be a fine short stop if thats where they choose to utilize him....other than that ill give ya the short stop production hasnt been stellar...

 

<Name a quality catcher produced by the White Sox farm system. >

 

youve got one here now.. watch olivo as he progresses through his career...also keep an eye on burke as he goes on in his career.. both are very good at what they do behind the plate.....other then them we produced guys like karkovice, johnson, and machado.. all who did their jobs quite well when called upon....

 

<Name a bullpen stopper produced by the White Sox farm system>

hmmm let me think back and a few names come to mind ...

alvarez, baldwin, bere,boehringer,bradford,buehrle,fernandez,garland,groom,mcdowell,sirotka,thigpen,wells,wickman,to name a few.. some not exactly stellar but our home grown just the same and made some kind of name for themselves along the way... our farm system in the 2000 year was rated number 1 amoung all farm systems and was pretty well stocked with potential stars.....they have since dwindled down and moved onto other systems because kw traded them away... we will see some of those long lost names pop up here in the next couple of years on major league teams and sitting back wishing they were still with us....count on it....the present ownership may not want to win in your eyes and thats ok its your opinion...i dont validate all their player decisions myself, but then again i dont own the team so why bother crying about it right...we lose the tub of goo and im not moping about it.. im glad hes gone....as for the yanks.. i think they will live to regret their decisions too.. of course they really havent won a world series in the past couple of years no matter how hard they try to buy one........that shows the difference in a business mans eyes.......money doesnt buy everything......

 

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The comment about the farm system being rated #1 after 2000 is true. BA rated it as such. Let's examine the next statement, that it was "pretty well stocked with potential stars ... they have since dwindled down and moved onto other systems because kw traded them away. We'll see those long lost names pop up here in the next couple of years on other major league teams ...".

 

I looked at the BA Prospect Handbook from spring 2001, the year they rated the Sox system #1. Let's look at all the "future stars" that were traded away by KW. Here are the top 30 as listed by BA in the spring of 2001.

 

1. Jon Rauch 2. Joe Borchard 3. Joe Crede 4. Matt Ginter 5. Dan Wright

6. Lorenzo Barcelo 7. Brian West 8. Aaron Rowand 9. Josh Fogg

10. Jason Stumm 11. Gary Majewski 12. Jeff Liefer 13. Rocky Biddle

14. Corwin Malone 15. Jeff Bajenaru 16. Matt Guerrier 17. Rob Purvis

18. Miguel Olivo 19. Tim Hummel 20. Josh Paul 21. Julio Ramirez 22. Gary Glover 23. Ken Vining 24. Geronimo Mendoza 25. McKay Christensen 26. Chris Amador 27. Bo Ivy 28. Amaury Garcia 29. Danny Sandoval 30. Jason Dellaero

 

WOW, ARE WE STUPID, LOOK AT ALL THE HALL OF FAMERS WE TRADED!

 

For the record, out of that crop of "future stars", the Sox actually traded the following guys: Josh Fogg, Gary Majewski (got him back), Jeff Leifer, Rocky Biddle, Matt Guerrier, Tim Hummel, Gary Glover, and McKay Christensen.

 

Guys on this list who would arguably make the Sox roster, even in it's depleted current state: Rocky Biddle. Maybe Josh Fogg, but he got knocked around pretty good in '03.

 

Tim Hummel? A utility guy at best, as stated by the same BA people who rated our system as #1 in early 2001.

 

And yeah, that 32 year old Jamie Burke is on the fast track to the majors.

 

I'm going to dig out the 2002 and 2003 prospect handbooks too ... I want to see how many future stars that evil KW traded away.

 

Disclaimer: I'm neither a big KW fan, nor basher. I just don't like these blanket statements by insiders, especially when they have little basis in fact.

 

I'll post the 2002 and 2003 prospects in a little while.

[winninguglyin83]

I believe Bucky Dent is the last decent SS produced by our farm system.

 

That's only 25-30 years ago.

 

What's the rush?

 

That's why I won't get too excited about Gonzalez, Morse or Valido until I see them hit the 1-2 yakker.

 

the situation at catcher is probably as bad, if not worse.

 

Josh Paul, Mark Johnson, Ron Karkovice, Ricky Seilheimer, Joel Skinner.

 

We were drafting higher during the Larry Himes Regime, but the man knocked four draft picks in a row outta the park -- Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas and Alex Fernandez.

 

We'll never have a run like that again.

 

One reason it would hurt to see Magglio go is he as good a homegrown outfielder as the Sox have produced in a long, long time. The best since Baines. You hate to see guys like that go.

 

But that's baseball these days.

[Guest JimH]

OK, here is the 2002 Top 30:

 

1. Joe Borchard 2. Jon Rauch 3. Corwin Malone 4. Matt Guerrier 5. Joe Crede 6. Tim Hummel 7. Kris Honel 8. Miguel Olivo 9. Dennis Ulacia 10. Aaron Rowand 11. Edwin Almonte 12. Matt Ginter 13. Brian West 14. Casey Rogowski 15. Wyatt Allen 16. Jason Stumm 17. Arnie Munoz 18. Andy Gonzalez 19. Kyle Kane 20. Mitch Wylie 21. Delvis Lantigua 22. Anthony Webster 23. Guillermo Reyes 24. Gary Majewski 25. Humberto Quintero 26. Mario Valenzuela 27. Heath Phillips 28. Charlie Lisk 29. Brian Sager 30. Aaron Kirkland

 

Guys who were traded on this list (not already mentioned in my last post):

 

Edwin Almonte, Delvis Lantigua, Anthony Webster, Humberto Quintero

 

So let's see ... Almonte stunk it up for the Mets. Lantigua was found to be at least 2 years older as a result of the immigration crackdown and I think he was cut loose. Webster has promise and is very young, but he did not have a good year. Quintero can throwbut his bat is extremely suspect.

 

So Webster and Quintero have a chance at contributing to a major league team.

 

But "future stars"? Highly debatable.

[winninguglyin83]

Quintero made major progress with the bat last season in AA ball.

 

Defensively, he is as good as Olivo, if not better.

 

He doesn't project to be a star, but he could be a big-league regular by 2005.

 

But I agree: It's been lotso hype and very little substance.

[Guest JimH]

And here's the 2003 list (man, are my fingers tired from typing out the names of all these future stars we traded):

 

1. Joe Borchard 2. Miguel Olivo 3. Anthony Webster 4. Kris Honel 5. Jon Rauch 6. Corwin Malone 7. Andy Gonzalez 8. Felix Diaz 9. Arnie Munoz 10. Royce Ring 11. Neal Cotts 12. Micah Schnurstein 13. Dave Sanders 14. Ryan Wing 15. Brian West 16. Brian Miller 17. Tim Hummel 18. Daniel Haigwood 19. Pedro Lopez 20. Jason Stumm 21. Jeremy Reed 22. Josh Stewart 23. Edwin Almonte 24. Wyatt Allen 25. Heath Phillips 26. Josh Rupe 27. Edwin Yan 28. Dennis Ulacia 29. Frank Francisco 30. Thomas Brice

 

OK, so this gets more interesting now. Here are the guys who've been traded (again, excluding those already named): Royce Ring, Frank Francisco, Josh Rupe.

 

NOW ... here are the prospects on this list who were acquired in trades:

Felix Diaz, Neal Cotts, Edwin Yan.

 

Riddle me this: If you had to make this trade, would you do it:

 

Royce Ring, Frank Francisco, and Josh Rupe for Neal Cotts, Felix Diaz, and Edwin Yan.

 

It's a pretty even trade if you ask me.

 

(also I did not mention about Olivo, he was acquired in a trade).

 

The point of all this being, yes, some prospects have been traded. Prospects have been acquired too.

 

But this revisionist history crap that KW and his staff have decimated a farm system stocked with future stars is, well, bulls***.

 

End of rant. Just thought it'd be fun to look up all the names.

 

And yes, I realize there may have been other prospects either traded or acquired who were not on these Top 30 BA lists.

 

Recent example would be Aaron Miles for Uribe. Miles is a good kid but that's a fairly even trade in my book.

 

If there is fault with the farm system, it's for not developing (or drafting) enough quality. There have been some definite drafting mistakes, particularly with some college pitchers.

[Guest Hex Rudler]

Nice commentary, JimH.

 

It's still pretty easy material to bash Kenny considering those two killer trades he made in the last two years, not to mention giving away too much for Everett and Alomar. But you did your homework. (Did you forget Anthony Webster?)

[Guest JimH]

Thanks.

 

Comments on Webster in the 2002 list.

 

I was not happy to lose Webster, nor do I mean to minimize his potential. In addition, I won't use his mediocre play after the trade to suggest he's not a prospect.

 

Conversely, I think he does have a chance to be a player.

 

In essence, I'm wanting to avoid the same type of blanket statements that are made to malign Sox management, particularly KW.

 

Anyone can "say" they're an expert on the basis of going to a few minor league games (not meaning you Rex, your insight and knowledge is obvious). But it takes more than seeing a few games.

 

Some of these "potential stars" have already been traded from the organizations we traded them to.

[Chisoxfn]

Good stuff Jim, I pretty much agree with you. Of course I believe that Rupe and Ring were the only good prospects we gave up in the deadline deals, although I do like Hummell.

 

But I like your analysis.

[DBAHO]

I believe Bucky Dent is the last decent SS produced by our farm system.

 

That's only 25-30 years ago.

 

What's the rush?

 

That's why I won't get too excited about Gonzalez, Morse or Valido until I see them hit the 1-2 yakker.

 

the situation at catcher is probably as bad, if not worse.

 

Josh Paul, Mark Johnson, Ron Karkovice, Ricky Seilheimer, Joel Skinner.

 

We were drafting higher during the Larry Himes Regime, but the man knocked four draft picks in a row outta the park -- Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas and Alex Fernandez.

 

We'll never have a run like that again.

 

One reason it would hurt to see Magglio go is he as good a homegrown outfielder as the Sox have produced in a long, long time. The best since Baines. You hate to see guys like that go.

 

But that's baseball these days.

FoxSports ArticleAccording to FoxSports.com we hav the 24th best Farm System and Prospects at the moment. We need Robert Valido to keep developin thru the majors and hopefully if we trade Jose and Uribe can't develop any further in the majors Valido can be the guy we can next count on. That won't happen till bout 2007 though.

[whitesox61382]

There was some good analysis in this thread. I have no problem with trading prospects. I hate when people overract when a top prospect is traded. I do understand the importance of a solid minor league system and building from within, but what few people realize is that VERY FEW prospects ever make it. If you trade prospects for proven players, than you are trading an uncertainty for a proven comodity. Yet people neglect this simple fact, the fact that VERY RARELY do the prospects traded ever develop into an equal/better player then the proven major leaguer they were traded for. Furthermore, you need to understand this simple concept, prospects are unproven potential until they prove themselves at the major league level(which is the only thing that matters). I makes no difference that Harris hit close to .400 at AAA last year, if he can barely hit .200 in the majors. These are simple ideas that people often neglect because they put too much faith/stock into prospects. This thread helps prove these points.

[BrandoFan]

I do understand the importance of a solid minor league system and building from within, but what few people realize is that VERY FEW prospects ever make it. If you trade prospects for proven players, than you are trading an uncertainty for a proven comodity. Yet people neglect this simple fact, the fact that VERY RARELY do the prospects traded ever develop into an equal/better player then the proven major leaguer they were traded for

 

1. I think Evrett/Robbie for basically Rupe, Ring, Webster was a good trade because after 2001-2002 debacles Sox needed to win the division BADLY (we are no witnessing the consequences of yet another huge failure) and becase, frankly, other than Ring who is gonna be a solid lefty reliever in the majors, we gave up very little. Webster couldn't hit in LOW A-BAll, people, which means he is AT LEAST 3-4 years away from doing ANYTHING in the majors....if he ever makes it there, which I doubt. Rupe? Meh, just another reliever who throws 93.

 

2. It's important for Mariners and Cubs to have good farm systems; it's CRUCIAL for White Sox and it's more than just semantics. When you try to win a 50 Mill budget, unless your team can produce Burnett, Beckett, Looper, Cabrera, Pierre, Gonzalez, Lee, Lowell, Catillo, Penny within a short span, you're NOT gonna come CLOSE to winning the world series-- and Marlins were lucky as hell to even make it to NLCS...............

 

Look at it this way: just because Jon Rauch's growth stunted because of injury rendering him unable to post a 4.00 ERA in the majors at the league MINIMUM, we're forced to pay 7+ Mill a year to Ponson to basically post the same name numbers. Similarly, because Munoz and Diaz did not progress as well as we hoped coming into 2003, Sox had pay 1.5 for White, which meant any hope

re-signing Foulke in favor of Koch vanished.....pretty much costing us the divison. There a ton of other exampes.

 

The point is that the incoming hyped youngster doesn't even NEED to be "better than an average ML commodity"; he just needs to be as close in ability as possible-- allowing his cheap price benefit the club in other ways. Example: Gload will probably never match Konerko's best, but I will sure as hell take 300K of Gload over 8 Mill of Konerko because the 7.7 Mill you save on the former, combined with a similar saving elsewere, can go toward getting a true ace starter to complement Loaiza, Burhle, Garland in the pennant race and playoffs. And so on.

 

Sox farm system? Middle of the road. I still have hopes for Olivo, Reed and Cotts. Haven't completely written off Rauch, Borchard either. Honel and Pacheco sound intriguing. I don't see a single All-Star in the bunch, but as long as they are legitimate ML contributers in the next 2-3 years, our scouts are to be congradulated.

[JoshPR]

Here's a post I found humorous on the official site regarding our farm system.  Normally it's worth ignoring most of the posts over there since it's basically a mud slinging contest, but this one about the White Sox farm system caught my eye, especially since it is, in my opinion, so TOTALLY off base.  Here it is:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name a shortstop produced by the White Sox farm system>

watch tim hummel this year on the reds... he will be a fine short stop if thats where they choose to utilize him....other than that ill give ya the short stop production hasnt been stellar...

 

 

youve got one here now.. watch olivo as he progresses through his career...also keep an eye on burke as he goes on in his career.. both are very good at what they do behind the plate.....other then them we produced guys like karkovice, johnson, and machado.. all who did their jobs quite well when called upon....

 

hmmm let me think back and a few names come to mind ...

alvarez, baldwin, bere,boehringer,bradford,buehrle,fernandez,garland,groom,mcdowell,sirotka,thigpen,wells,wickman,to name a few.. some not exactly stellar but our home grown just the same and made some kind of name for themselves along the way... our farm system in the 2000 year was rated number 1 amoung all farm systems and was pretty well stocked with potential stars.....they have since dwindled down and moved onto other systems because kw traded them away... we will see some of those long lost names pop up here in the next couple of years on major league teams and sitting back wishing they were still with us....count on it....the present ownership may not want to win in your eyes and thats ok its your opinion...i dont validate all their player decisions myself, but then again i dont own the team so why bother crying about it right...we lose the tub of goo and im not moping about it.. im glad hes gone....as for the yanks.. i think they will live to regret their decisions too.. of course they really havent won a world series in the past couple of years no matter how hard they try to buy one........that shows the difference in a business mans eyes.......money doesnt buy everything......

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The comment about the farm system being rated #1 after 2000 is true.  BA rated it as such.  Let's examine the next statement, that it was "pretty well stocked with potential stars ... they have since dwindled down and moved onto other systems because kw traded them away.  We'll see those long lost names pop up here in the next couple of years on other major league teams ...".

 

I looked at the BA Prospect Handbook from spring 2001, the year they rated the Sox system #1.  Let's look at all the "future stars" that were traded away by KW.  Here are the top 30 as listed by BA in the spring of 2001.

 

1. Jon Rauch  2.  Joe Borchard  3. Joe Crede  4.  Matt Ginter  5.  Dan Wright

6.  Lorenzo Barcelo  7.  Brian West  8.  Aaron Rowand  9.  Josh Fogg

10.  Jason Stumm  11.  Gary Majewski  12.  Jeff Liefer  13.  Rocky Biddle

14.  Corwin Malone  15.  Jeff Bajenaru  16.  Matt Guerrier  17.  Rob Purvis

18.  Miguel Olivo  19.  Tim Hummel  20.  Josh Paul  21.  Julio Ramirez  22.  Gary Glover  23.  Ken Vining  24.  Geronimo Mendoza  25.  McKay Christensen  26.  Chris Amador  27.  Bo Ivy  28.  Amaury Garcia  29.  Danny Sandoval  30.  Jason Dellaero

 

WOW, ARE WE STUPID, LOOK AT ALL THE HALL OF FAMERS WE TRADED!

 

For the record, out of that crop of "future stars", the Sox actually traded the following guys:  Josh Fogg, Gary Majewski (got him back), Jeff Leifer, Rocky Biddle, Matt Guerrier, Tim Hummel, Gary Glover, and McKay Christensen.

 

Guys on this list who would arguably make the Sox roster, even in it's depleted current state:  Rocky Biddle.  Maybe Josh Fogg, but he got knocked around pretty good in '03.

 

Tim Hummel?  A utility guy at best, as stated by the same BA people who rated our system as #1 in early 2001.

 

And yeah, that 32 year old Jamie Burke is on the fast track to the majors.

 

I'm going to dig out the 2002 and 2003 prospect handbooks too ... I want to see how many future stars that evil KW traded away.

 

Disclaimer:  I'm neither a big KW fan, nor basher.  I just don't like these blanket statements by insiders, especially when they have little basis in fact.

 

I'll post the 2002 and 2003 prospects in a little while.

Keep Your Eye on Jamie Burke????? LOL!!! He's a Journeyman.. Was he the scout who told Beastly that Burke had future as a defensive standout?? LOL!!!