baggio202 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 can someone explain to me the neil cotts lovefest???...posters are picking him to win the 5 spot...any trades we talk about posters say no if cotts is involved...i watched him pitch a little last year and i wasnt impressed...ill give him his lack of control and figure that swill improve with thime but i didnt see a blazing fastball or wicked ass movement...his stuff seemed probably a little above average did i miss something??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Once he gets his control down he's gonna be a stud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 By the way, it's Neal Cotts, not Neil. Biggio202 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Once he gets his control down he's gonna be a stud. why do you think that???...cause thats what i dont see...i see a guy if he gets his control could make a decent back of the rotation starter...everyone here is so high on the guy i must be missing something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 By the way, it's Neal Cotts, not Neil. Biggio202 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 .ill give him his lack of control and figure that swill improve with thime but i didnt see a blazing fastball or wicked ass movement. Two Words: Kieth Foulke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 can someone explain to me the neil cotts lovefest???...posters are picking him to win the 5 spot...any trades we talk about posters say no if cotts is involved...i watched him pitch a little last year and i wasnt impressed...ill give him his lack of control and figure that swill improve with thime but i didnt see a blazing fastball or wicked ass movement...his stuff seemed probably a little above average did i miss something??? Nah, you didnt miss a thing. He blows a fat one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Here's why people are high on Cotts, from BA: Strengths: Cotts has averaged 11.2 strikeouts per nine innings in the minors despite a fastball that tops out at 91 mph. His motion makes his fastball look harder. His changeup is his best pitch, and his curveball improved last year. He does a good job changing speeds and using his secondary pitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Here's why people are high on Cotts, from BA: Strengths: Cotts has averaged 11.2 strikeouts per nine innings in the minors despite a fastball that tops out at 91 mph. His motion makes his fastball look harder. His changeup is his best pitch, and his curveball improved last year. He does a good job changing speeds and using his secondary pitches. ^ he says it best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 And he also got thrown into a bad situation. Our dumbass manager chose to pitch him in an important game in Yankee Stadium when Buehrle asked him to pitch that day instead of Cotts. And if we had managment that didn't have its thumb up its ass, they would have gone out and got a Jeff Suppan or someone of that nature to fill the 5th starter spot rather than throwing Cotts in there during the heat of the pennant race. The guy came from AA and had 4 starts and you are calling him a bust. Get ready to eat crow in the next yr or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 And he also got thrown into a bad situation. Our dumbass manager chose to pitch him in an important game in Yankee Stadium when Buehrle asked him to pitch that day instead of Cotts. And if we had managment that didn't have its thumb up its ass, they would have gone out and got a Jeff Suppan or someone of that nature to fill the 5th starter spot rather than throwing Cotts in there during the heat of the pennant race. The guy came from AA and had 4 starts and you are calling him a bust. Get ready to eat crow in the next yr or two. i didnt call him a bust...im just trying to figure out why we are so high on him...i hope he wins 300 games for the sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Strengths: Cotts has averaged 11.2 strikeouts per nine innings in the minors despite a fastball that tops out at 91 mph. His motion makes his fastball look harder. His changeup is his best pitch, and his curveball improved last year. He does a good job changing speeds and using his secondary pitches. How much does that sound like Kieth foulke??? fastball topping out around 90 - CHECK Changeup is best pitch - CHECK Motion makes fastball appear faster - CHECK Does a good job changing speeds - CHECK Added bonus the kid's a lefty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Our future #3 starter: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 How much does that sound like Kieth foulke??? fastball topping out around 90 - CHECK Changeup is best pitch - CHECK Motion makes fastball appear faster - CHECK Does a good job changing speeds - CHECK Added bonus the kid's a lefty. foulke never made it as a starter...is cotts better suited for the bullpen then...would grooming him for the closer role be a better idea??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 He may not have the control yet to be an everyday ML starter, but everything I need to know about the guy, I saw in the first at-bat of the futures game. Cotts fell behind on a couple close pitches, then worked inside and outside, changing speeds for the next ten pitches, (an incredible at-bat) before giving up a single. I knew then, even giving up that hit, that he could pitch. He then quickly sat down the next three guys in order. Once he's comfortable, and ready with the command, he's going to be a great asset to this club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 He may not have the control yet to be an everyday ML starter, but everything I need to know about the guy, I saw in the first at-bat of the futures game. Cotts fell behind on a couple close pitches, then worked inside and outside, changing speeds for the next ten pitches, (an incredible at-bat) before giving up a single. I knew then, even giving up that hit, that he could pitch. He then quickly sat down the next three guys in order. Once he's comfortable, and ready with the command, he's going to be a great asset to this club. Well said and I couldn't agree more. Don't judge someone on their first 4 MLB starts, give him some time to further develop and he will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 foulke never made it as a starter...is cotts better suited for the bullpen then...would grooming him for the closer role be a better idea??? The one thing I didn't highlight was and his curveball improved last year foulke never really developed a third pitch here. In fact he became truly effective here when he dropped to only two pitches. Foulke has again begun throwing a cutter/slider (and is much more effective with it than he was in a WS uni). Cotts has 3 good pitches, and we're loaded with lefties in the pen. (marte, Wunsch, Munoz-- are all filthy) He's definately going to be a starter for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 why do you think that???...cause thats what i dont see...i see a guy if he gets his control could make a decent back of the rotation starter...everyone here is so high on the guy i must be missing something Well 11.5 K's per nine innings pitched in the minors and he flashed good strikeout ability in a short stint in the majors. Control is definately an issue, but the guy flat out gets hitters to miss the bat. He may need another half year to year in the minors, but he's the real deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Well said and I couldn't agree more. Don't judge someone on their first 4 MLB starts, give him some time to further develop and he will be fine. Remember how great Maddux was in his first 4 starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Cotts seems like he will be a good pitcher...just needs to stop giving up so many BB. The pitcher I liked last year was Josh Stewart. I thought he pitched pretty decent. Only thing was he was victim to no run support as were most of the Sox pitchers. Hopefully he gets that circulatory problem under control and I hope he gets back to the bigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Well 11.5 K's per nine innings pitched in the minors and he flashed good strikeout ability in a short stint in the majors. Control is definately an issue, but the guy flat out gets hitters to miss the bat. He may need another half year to year in the minors, but he's the real deal. Once he can strike out batters consistently in the Majors he's gonna be a real good pitcher. He needs to work on an Out pitch, but he's fastball is pretty deceptive at 91MPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bones Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Three Words... Illinois State Alum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfour Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 How much does that sound like Kieth foulke??? fastball topping out around 90 - CHECK Changeup is best pitch - CHECK Motion makes fastball appear faster - CHECK Does a good job changing speeds - CHECK Added bonus the kid's a lefty. Keith Foulke's change up is lights out. He might have the best change up in the league. There's no comparison between him and Cotts. Cotts and control don't belong in the same sentence. There are a lot of other teams that are stacked with offense besides the Yankees. Teams like Baltimore and Toronto, who aren't going anywhere in the long run, will light that kid up. The Red Sox, Angels, and Mariners would annihilate us with Cotts out on the mound. He can't start, and he can't pitch out of the bullpen because of all the left handers that we already have. He's not going to make the team out of spring training. NO COTTS. SEND HIM BACK TO DAWSON'S CREEK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Cotts had a poor start to the season, control wise, and then seemed to get it together before being called up. I can see how a kid getting called up in the thick of a pennant race would let things get too him so that he didn't quite have command of his pitches. He didn't look to me like someone who just "has no control". He looked like a nervous rookie. Whether or not he makes the team out of Tucson, I don't know. In fact, I doubt it. But for people to give up on this kid boggles the mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 baggs, aboz and others have given some good info on Cotts so I will try not to repeat it, Here are some other thoughts..... 1. Cotts flat out knows how to pitch. He is a rare pitcher that knows how to use all four quadrants of the strike zone rather than just pitching in and out. His ability to change speeds, coupled with deception and use of all four quadrants of the zone make him very difficult to hit. I saw him many times freeze hitters and get a K looking because hitters weren't expecting to see what they got. He doesn't follow normal pitching patterns. Being able to do that, allows you to expand the strike zone on hitters which makes you that much more effective. That didn't work in the Majors because he was never able to establish himself and his ability to work the entire zone. Once he gets comfortable and establishes his confidence, you will see his ability to get hitters out increase tenfold. 2. The Sox did Neal no favors by trying to teach him to throw a cutter almost immediately after his MLB arrival. What does that say to a kid other than "We don't think you are good enough"? Why not give a kid a chance to use the stuff that was supposedly good enough to get him there in the first place and develop some confidence first, then try to add to his repertoire? Trying to change him after his initial bad outing only drives his confidence down. 3. The Yankee Stadium debacle was the final straw. Cotts was set up to fail in that game. Manuel teetered all week over whether Cotts of Buehrle would start. No one knew who would go and both pitchers were in limbo (is it any wonder BOTH lost?). Basically, Manuel said that if the Sox win the first two games of the series, then Cotts would go because the series was already won and that game was less important (yeah, right). If they lost one of those games, he would go with Buehrle because they would then need that game to win the series. Couple that with the fact the whole Sox clubhouse wanted Buehrle to get the start, and you have a perfect molotav cocktail ready to blow. What else could have that done to a pitcher who was already struggling than completely f*** up his mindset? As I said, the Sox set him up to fail, so that debacle should have come as no surprise. 4. If you look at his outings for the Sox, there are a few silver linings. His first outing was horrible, there is no disputing that. However, I believe that can certainly be chalked up to nerves. He basically had to fly across the country and jump right onto the mound. That outing should be tossed out the window. His second outing @ Texas showed promise. He only walked two hitters and struck out six, including ARod twice. The Sox should have pulled him after 5 innings when he had only given up one run. Getting him off the mound with a successful ending would have done wonders for his confidence. Ffor those wondering, yes, I was saying this before the 6th inning even started. Instead they ran him back out there to face ARod a 3rd time. He gives up a solo HR to ARod and then walks a couple. He gets two outs, but leaves with (I believe) the bases loaded, where the bullpen came in and gave up a hit allowing his last two runs to score. Even with the rocky 6th inning, the outing was something to build on. The third outing was tough because he had to face the same Rangers team within a week. There is a definite advantage to the hitters in this situation. He was also making his home debut so there was added pressure with lots of friends and family around. I'm not making excuses, just stating why this wasn't just simply his "3rd start". He got the win in this start but didn't pitch particularly well. He looked like he did early in the season in AA, when he allowed runners to reach and then got out of jams. He only allowed one run, but 5 hits and 5 BB. it was encouraging to see he could work himself out of trouble, especially considering the Rangers were likely to have more success against him than the first time. All things considered, it was a so-so outing, but it was his first MLB win and an outing to build on. Last comes the Yankee Stadium debacle which has already been chronicled. I think too many Sox fans remember his first and last outings and fail to look at the things he showed in between. There were definitely things to build on. I have no doubt that if Neal had made his 4th start against Detroit, he would have pitched much better and continued to start for the Sox. How he would have fared the rest of the season is tough to tell, but I think it is a mistake to allow the two bad outings to overshadow the big picture with him. All that said, there is no doubt Neal needs to continue to get better. His walk totals, pitch counts, etc, all make life harder for him. But the pure fact is, hitters don't hit him well. He gave up 2 HR, a .178 avg against and only 67 hits in 108 IP. If he can hone his command and gain the confidence to utilize all areas of the strike zone, that will allow him to expand it on hitters and you will see where the above numbers came from. Four starts is too soon to judge any pitcher, especially a young one who had thrown no more than 2/3 of a season in AA. Keep in mind Buehrle made the jump, but they also eased him into the game using him out of the bullpen. A lot can happen down the road, but I am confident Neal will be back with the Sox, whether this year or next, and become a solid MLB pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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