elrockinMT Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Kerry Wood is a dominating big game pitcher and I dont think Wells can even be compared with Wood...I also hate the Cubs, but like Kerry Wood because he is from Texas.. And that makes sense. Good enough for me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I'll compare the two since you're looking for a fight and I have the numbers to back it up.... You forget that there are interleague games... Kips ERA in interleague games is even more impressive than the rest of his starts... 15IP 14H 5R 5ER 5BB 10K --- That works out to an ERA of 3.00 a WHIP@1.25 and BAA about .250 -------------------------- You'll no doubt argue that pitchers in the national league have a lower ERA, while this is true, It's significantly less than what you think it is... American League Year R/G RA G ERA IP H H/G BB BB/G HR HR/G SO SO/G CG SHO SV pAge +----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---- 2003 4.86 11061 2270 4.53 20224 20905 9.2 7111 3.1 2500 1.10 13735 6.05 110 109 538 28.7 2002 4.81 10862 2264 4.46 20164 20592 9.1 7290 3.2 2457 1.09 14020 6.19 115 122 558 28.7 National League Year R/G RA G ERA IP H H/G BB BB/G HR HR/G SO SO/G CG SHO SV pAge +----+-----+-----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+----+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---- 2003 4.61 11917 2590 4.28 23110 23152 8.9 8778 3.4 2707 1.05 17066 6.59 99 150 661 28.8 2002 4.45 11546 2588 4.10 23105 22680 8.8 8956 3.5 2602 1.01 17374 6.71 99 153 666 28.8 The average difference between the two leagues is over the two years is 0.3 ER... Applying that to the kippers numbers over the past two years .... Kips ERA over 2002&3 = 3.43 Kips Estimated AL ERA over the same time frame = 3.73 To give that 3.73 number some meaning I'll compare it to Mark Beuhrle's over the same time frame....MB 2002&3 ERA = 4.05 WHere did he play those interleague games? How did he fair in interleague games in American League parks and what teams did he play against in the American League parks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike12345 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I have already agreed that Kip Wells is a good pitcher...I said he wasn't a great pitcher or an ace like others said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Kip took the loss in both games.... vs. Tex and TB I don't know where they were played... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Kip took the loss in both games.... vs. Tex and TB I don't know where they were played... Between 2002 and 2003 he only pitched in 2 interleague games? How well did he pitch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Between 2002 and 2003 he only pitched in 2 interleague games? How well did he pitch? Read much? --- two starts --- two quality outings -- two losses -- that's what you get when you're playing for the Pirates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 WHere did he play those interleague games? How did he fair in interleague games in American League parks and what teams did he play against in the American League parks? So now it is the park and the league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Read much? --- two starts --- two quality outings -- two losses -- that's what you get when you're playing for the Pirates. To be honest with you I can only find one game that he has pitched against an American League team and that was last year against TB at TB. I can't find this Cleveland game you speak of. Plus I asked how well he pitched, not if he took the loss or not. Do you have trouble comprehending my question? So you are basing your argument on one game against a piece of crap Devil Rays team? Good luck with that. The rest of that stuff is nonsense as I don't care what the average pitcher's era in both leagues are. We were talking about Kip, so lets stick to that. I know he pitches in a huge pitcher friendly ballpark. And I know he faces a team with a lineup that has a terrible bottom 3 on most nights. To say that that doesn't make a difference is asinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 So now it is the park and the league? Well lets see Rexy, if he is pitching in a National League park then you are not using the DH. Therefore is it really like pitching against an American League lineup? I think not. I also think his huge pitcher friendly ballpark does have a lot to do with his stats, but that is not the case I was making when asking where he pitched at. Fast to jump to such conclusions are we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I can't find this Cleveland game you speak of. Psst...Texas not Cleveland is what he mentioned... **FanOf14 quietly and quickly backs out of thread** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Psst...Texas not Cleveland is what he mentioned... **FanOf14 quietly and quickly backs out of thread** Thank you Fan. The Texas game was not played in an American League park. It was played at Pittsburgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 To be honest with you I can only find one game that he has pitched against an American League team and that was last year against TB at TB. I can't find this Cleveland game you speak of. So you are basing your argument on one game against a piece of crap Devil Rays team? Good luck with that. The rest of that stuff is nonsense as I don't care what the average pitcher's era in both leagues are. We were talking about Kip, so lets stick to that. I know he pitches in a huge pitcher friendly ballpark. And I know he faces a team with a lineup that has a terrible bottom 3 on most nights. To say that that doesn't make a difference is asinine. Boy do you have a thick skull -- I knew it was a requirement to work for the government an all -- But that's the third thing you've read wrong, or just plain ignored in this thread... Here it is... One last time... The average difference between the two leagues is over the two years is 0.3 ER... Applying that to the kippers numbers over the past two years .... Kips ERA over 2002&3 = 3.43 Kips Estimated AL ERA over the same time frame = 3.73 To give that 3.73 number some meaning I'll compare it to Mark Beuhrle's over the same time frame....MB 2002&3 ERA = 4.05 KIP's ERA when adding the .3 to compensate for pitching in the National League is Lower than Mark B's (our #1 pitcher) over that same span... Year Tm Lg W L G GS GF CG IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP ERA *lgERA *ERA+ +--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+ 2002 PIT NL 12 14 33 33 0 1 198.3 197 92 79 21 71 134 7 3.58 4.32 121 2003 PIT NL 10 9 31 31 0 1 197.3 171 77 72 24 76 147 7 3.28 4.24 129 And the definitions for lgERA and ERA+ lgERA - Earned Run Average for a league average pitcher in that ballpark or combination of ballparks. ERA+ - the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher. > 100 is above average and IF you are so concerned about the park... take a look at Kips lgERA -- It's almost a full run less than that of the average pitcher, placed in the same park. Kip took the loss in both games.... vs. Tex and TB I don't know where they were played... TEXAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the Texas game was in 2002. I'm not basing my argument on one game vs. the D-rays--- There's 395 innings of work there displayed for you...I used the D-rays game as an example it really doesn't matter what league the players are in... Mussina is 0-2 with an ERA of 11 vs. the D-rays now... Does that mean he can't pitch in the AL? READ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Well lets see Rexy, if he is pitching in a National League park then you are not using the DH. Therefore is it really like pitching against an American League lineup? I think not. I also think his huge pitcher friendly ballpark does have a lot to do with his stats, but that is not the case I was making when asking where he pitched at. Fast to jump to such conclusions are we? 2002 PNC park Ballpark: PNC Park (ballparks.com) Attendance: 1,784,988 (13th out of 16) Park Factor: Batting - 106/Pitching - 105 (over 100 favors batters) So here is the real data for 2002 -- It's a hitters park.... 2003 PNC park Ballpark: PNC Park (ballparks.com) Attendance: 1,636,751 (14th out of 16) Park Factor: Batting - 99/Pitching - 99 (over 100 favors batters) And 2003 -- pitcher's park- Though I'd call 99 neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Like I said, I don't care about the league average. I could care less. I care about how KIP WELLS has performed in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. Thats all. So far in the past two years you have one game against the TB Devil Rays to show me proof of this performance. Not that great if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Like I said, I don't care about the league average. I could care less. I care about how KIP WELLS has performed in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. Thats all. So far in the past two years you have one game against the TB Devil Rays to show me proof of this performance. Not that great if you ask me. Here's a very comparable situation.... Curt Schilling broke into the bigs in the AL w/ the orioles... he had a 4.54 ERA in the AL, and and ERA over 7 his first two seasons.... We only saw kip in the AL for 2+ seasons w/ an ERA of around 5... Schilling went to the NL at age 24, Kip @ 25... we know what kind of numbers schilling has put up in the NL, and has now returned to the AL... Do you feel that Schilling will have a hard time converting back to the AL??? I suspect that Kip would have the same results... -------------------------------- To anyone else who actually reads my posts, there's a really interesting read in the last Issue of SI (w/ Wood on the Cover). It speaks of the perception that the NL is a fastball league, and debunks the myth completely. Lots of good articles in that edition, which is surprising for SI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Here's a very comparable situation.... Curt Schilling broke into the bigs in the AL w/ the orioles... he had a 4.54 ERA in the AL, and and ERA over 7 his first two seasons.... We only saw kip in the AL for 2+ seasons w/ an ERA of around 5... Schilling went to the NL at age 24, Kip @ 25... we know what kind of numbers schilling has put up in the NL, and has now returned to the AL... Do you feel that Schilling will have a hard time converting back to the AL??? I suspect that Kip would have the same results... -------------------------------- To anyone else who actually reads my posts, there's a really interesting read in the last Issue of SI (w/ Wood on the Cover). It speaks of the perception that the NL is a fastball league, and debunks the myth completely. Lots of good articles in that edition, which is surprising for SI. I can't believe you are comparing Kip Wells to Curt Schilling. :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 :banghead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I can't believe you are comparing Kip Wells to Curt Schilling. :headshake You're right... Schilling was a much lower prospect.... Drafted in the second round... and took longer to reach the big leagues (Another reason to have more patience with Kip, He was rushed to the majors)... Kip Wells Drafted by the Chicago White Sox in the 1st round (16th pick) of the 1998 First major league action in 1999 -- Posted 4.04 ERA-- in the AMERICAN LEAGUE going 4-1 -- stuck in the bigs in 2001 -- started Producing in 02 Curt Schilling Drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the 2nd round of the 1986 amateur draft. did'nt reach the bigs until 1988 -- didn't stick in the bigs until 1992... So kip was drafted higher, made the bigs quicker, stuck earlier, and started producing solid numbers, in a shorter time frame than Curt schilling. Why is this not a fair comparison for developing pitchers? I'm sure if you were a Boston/Baltimore fan would have claimed Schilling was no good because he was only putting up number in the NL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 You're right... Schilling was a much lower prospect.... Drafted in the second round... and took longer to reach the big leagues (Another reason to have more patience with Kip, He was rushed to the majors)... Kip Wells Curt Schilling To each their own. You can see it any way you like. If you think Kip Wells can be as good as Schilling then so be it. I can't see any comparison between the two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 SSI.. can I get the name of your eye doctor...?? You're eyesight is unbelieveable!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 SSI.. can I get the name of your eye doctor...?? You're eyesight is unbelieveable!! Well my regular eye doctor is Dr. Wonder, however he is out of town this weekend. I have to see his assistant, Dr. Charles., until he gets back. They are really wonderful and I recommend them greatly. They say I have perfect 20/20 vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xero Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Kipper, what a jag bag... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Kipper, what a jag bag... Yeah it's such a shame that he got traded to a terrible team in a completely lopsided deal, and he's made the best of it... Definitely a Jag Bag.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 It was indeed a horrible trade that not only killed 2002, but probably 2003 and even 2004 as well if you think about it. I understand some Sox fans have to stay in theraputic denial and pretend Wells is garbage, a chocker, etc. Will he be as good as Shilling? I doubt it, but everything is possible. Up until turning 34 and moving to Arizona, Shilling was basically a 3.50 ERA pitcher. An All-Star but not exactly the second coming of Pedro. Since moving to Pittsburgh, Kip is a 3.60 ERA pitcher. He may not be as good as Shilling was in 1997, but otherwise he is pretty damn close. Kip is 26. As a 26-28yo, Shilling averaged a 4.00+ ERA. Both pitchers throw 93-94 and can reach 95-97 when needed. Shilling has that splitter while Kip's slider and curve are better. Shilling has better control, but Wells still has time to improve his. 2 years from now I see Kipster as a 18-9, 3.40 ERA type pitcher. Better if he moves to a pitcher-friendly stadium. While not a HOF'er, definately a good #2 on most teams and ace on some. Which is more than I could say for Garland or Wright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Listen Cheat, I am not even saying that Kip is not a good pitcher. An ace or a stud I think not. However, to get in a debate about his talent was not my intentions in this thread. The fact that certain fans of the White Sox continue to lament over the trade is what gets to me. I think it is about time to let it go. Damn, it has been 3 years now. Move on and worry about the talent that is on our own team. We have plenty of talent in our system to fantasize about and not have to worry about what could have been if we would have kept the Kipper. Why don't we fixate on what we have and not what we gave up or could have had. That is what I don't understand. There is nothing that could have assured us that he would have been even a decent pitcher with us. Do you really think Nardi would have helped him become the even the pitcher that he is today? I have serious doubts about that. There is a lot that has helped Kip get to the level that he is at right now that would have never happened had he not been traded. Would those same things would have happened in our organization? Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.