Worth It?

[CWSGuy406]

You guys have missed the whole point of my argument.  You add 3 quality players to replace one player that isn't worth the money he is asking for.  Don't tell me I don't understand the economics of baseball because that's a huge issue with everything.  The white sox can't afford to spend 14 million on one player with the self imposed budget that they have.  The sox already have a great offensive core in place for next year, pitching they don't.  Add 2 pitchers and a position player or maybe 3 pitchers. With the sox self imposed budget it just isn't smart to take up a quarter of your payroll on one player where there is depth in the organization.  Say what you want about prospects but reed and borchard are eventually going to get their opportunity and plug one of them in right field and fill holes elsewhere with the money.  I never said trade maggs for a 3rd starter I said trade maggs in the lineup for reed or borchard and 3 quality pitchers or 2 quality pitchers and a position player.

Good post. Exactly right on, too.

[Texsox]

You guys have missed the whole point of my argument.  You add 3 quality players to replace one player that isn't worth the money he is asking for.  Don't tell me I don't understand the economics of baseball because that's a huge issue with everything.  The white sox can't afford to spend 14 million on one player with the self imposed budget that they have.  The sox already have a great offensive core in place for next year, pitching they don't.  Add 2 pitchers and a position player or maybe 3 pitchers. With the sox self imposed budget it just isn't smart to take up a quarter of your payroll on one player where there is depth in the organization.  Say what you want about prospects but reed and borchard are eventually going to get their opportunity and plug one of them in right field and fill holes elsewhere with the money.  I never said trade maggs for a 3rd starter I said trade maggs in the lineup for reed or borchard and 3 quality pitchers or 2 quality pitchers and a position player.

And my point is it royals sucks that the team cannot keep it's best player because of a self imposed salary cap. That it can't build on this team, it must take a step back and try to replace a star player again.

 

What three pitchers are you getting for $4,000,000 each? And for how long? I guess we can hope for another Esteban.

 

I'm tired, very tired, of 40 years of trading a proven player for prospects and hoped for free agents. We never seem to win the FA game, we always seem to lose. If Maggs was playing for the Expos, wouldn't we be clammering for him? I guess y'all are young and still believe in next year, still believe in this ownership. They've had 20 years, a couple playoff appearances. Let's hope this year works out.

 

If not y'all will go through another cycle of signing some good young players, get all so close, then watch as economic drives them away. You have the promise and enthusiasm of youth, I have 40 years of waiting for a World Series. Youth is all about the future, death is all about the past.

[Rowand44]

And my point is it royals sucks that the team cannot keep it's best player because of a self imposed salary cap. That it can't build on this team, it must take a step back and try to replace a star player again.

 

What three pitchers are you getting for $4,000,000 each? And for how long? I guess we can hope for another Esteban.

 

I'm tired, very tired, of 40 years of trading a proven player for prospects and hoped for free agents. We never seem to win the FA game, we always seem to lose. If Maggs was playing for the Expos, wouldn't we be clammering for him? I guess y'all are young and still believe in next year, still believe in this ownership. They've had 20 years, a couple playoff appearances. Let's hope this year works out.

 

If not y'all will go through another cycle of signing some good young players, get all so close, then watch as economic drives them away. You have the promise and enthusiasm of youth, I have 40 years of waiting for a World Series. Youth is all about the future, death is all about the past.

It does suck that we can't expand on this team. But the way reinsdorf is set in his budget this is the best way to go.

[CWSGuy406]

And my point is it royals sucks that the team cannot keep it's best player because of a self imposed salary cap. That it can't build on this team, it must take a step back and try to replace a star player again.

 

What three pitchers are you getting for $4,000,000 each? And for how long? I guess we can hope for another Esteban.

 

I'm tired, very tired, of 40 years of trading a proven player for prospects and hoped for free agents. We never seem to win the FA game, we always seem to lose. If Maggs was playing for the Expos, wouldn't we be clammering for him? I guess y'all are young and still believe in next year, still believe in this ownership. They've had 20 years, a couple playoff appearances. Let's hope this year works out.

 

If not y'all will go through another cycle of signing some good young players, get all so close, then watch as economic drives them away. You have the promise and enthusiasm of youth, I have 40 years of waiting for a World Series. Youth is all about the future, death is all about the past.

We gain 14 million in flexibility from losing Maggs:

 

Here's what I do with the money:

 

Since this FA class is very, very strong with starting pitchers, the following are pitchers I look at, of course, after resigning Loaiza:

 

Derrek Lowe

Odalis Perez

Matt Morris

Freddy Garcia

 

I sign, most likely one of them. Then, since this FA class is pretty weak as far as middle relievers, I look at either Ugueth Urbina or Troy Percival.

 

 

Now - a staff of Buerhle-Loaiza-Garland-(One from above)-Another FA or someone from the farm.

 

With the money I lose from losing Valentin and Koch, I go after Troy Glaus, or Carlos Delgado (unless Crede turns it around by years end, which, who knows, he still could do - and if we got Delgado, obviously, Paully is probably gone) - here is my lineup:

 

C Olivo

1B Konerko/Delgado

2B Harris

3B Crede/Glaus

SS Uribe

LF Lee

RF Reed/Borchard

CF Borchard/Reed

 

DH Thomas

 

 

I like that a lot, personally...

[Rowand44]

We gain 14 million in flexibility from losing Maggs:

 

Here's what I do with the money:

 

Since this FA class is very, very strong with starting pitchers, the following are pitchers I look at, of course, after resigning Loaiza:

 

Derrek Lowe

Odalis Perez

Matt Morris

Freddy Garcia

 

I sign, most likely one of them.  Then, since this FA class is pretty weak as far as middle relievers, I look at either Ugueth Urbina or Troy Percival.

 

 

Now - a staff of Buerhle-Loaiza-Garland-(One from above)-Another FA or someone from the farm. 

 

With the money I lose from losing Valentin and Koch, I go after Troy Glaus, or Carlos Delgado (unless Crede turns it around by years end, which, who knows, he still could do - and if we got Delgado, obviously, Paully is probably gone) - here is my lineup:

 

C Olivo

1B Konerko/Delgado

2B Harris

3B Crede/Glaus

SS Uribe

LF Lee

RF Reed/Borchard

CF Borchard/Reed

 

DH Thomas

 

 

I like that a lot, personally... 

Exactly what I was thinking of. Snab one of thoses starters and then a closer. Do that and you probably still have a descent amount of money to spend elsewhere. You improve the rotation alot. You improve the bullpen alot. You still have a very solid lineup. That's much better then keeping the lineup what it is now and having gaping holes in the pitching staff.

[Texsox]

I was reminded that it wasn't that long ago that we did the exact same thing with Robin Ventura and before that, Harold Baines. Watch them move to other teams, gather a few cheaper prospects, make room for can't miss prospects and life will be better. I guess the kids need to go through it as well. They can watch the process with Maggs. Funny, are we hoping one of these guys develops into a player who is as good as Maggs is now?

 

Let other teams have the superstars, we'll survive with the Valentins of the world and their 4 to 5 million dollar salaries. Someday Sox fans will be able to keep their superstars, until then, at a $2.4 million dollar per player average, I guess a $6 or $7 million (taking just over 10% of this payroll) will be it. Let other teams keep their superstars, we're not worthy.

 

I know CWSGuy and his buddy have extensive experience in running businesses and that they know the salary "cap" was based on projected income and that a business can take a conservative or an aggressive stance on those numbers. The Sox income projection could easily vary by several million dollars. I guess in their experience, taking a conservative estimate on advertising, viewership, attendance, etc. is the way to go. Some businesses find it limits their growth.

[SoxFan1]

If Shingo does real well, I say forget Percival or Urbina!

[YASNY]

All I'm going to say about this disagreement is this. After 40 years of being a Sox fan .... TexSox is absolutely 100% correct!

[Texsox]

All I'm going to say about this disagreement is this.  After 40 years of being a Sox fan .... TexSox is absolutely 100% correct!

Thank you YASNY. Once I looked at CWSGuy's profile, I realized how much sense losing Maggs must seem like.

 

Think we will retire his number on the way out of town?

[YASNY]

Thank you YASNY. Once I looked at CWSGuy's profile, I realized how much sense losing Maggs must seem like.

 

Think we will retire his number on the way out of town?

Why not? We did it for Harold.

[Texsox]

Why not? We did it for Harold.

That turned out hilarious when we brought him back. Actually Jordan pulled a Baines in that respect.

 

I don't think Maggs has the numbers like Baines did.

[Rowand44]

I was reminded that it wasn't that long ago that we did the exact same thing with Robin Ventura and before that, Harold Baines. Watch them move to other teams, gather a few cheaper prospects, make room for can't miss prospects and life will be better. I guess the kids need to go through it as well. They can watch the process with Maggs. Funny, are we hoping one of these guys develops into a player who is as good as Maggs is now?

 

Let other teams have the superstars, we'll survive with the Valentins of the world and their 4 to 5 million dollar salaries. Someday Sox fans will be able to keep their superstars, until then, at a $2.4 million dollar per player average, I guess a $6 or $7 million (taking just over 10% of this payroll) will be it. Let other teams keep their superstars, we're not worthy.

 

I know CWSGuy and his buddy have extensive experience in running businesses and that they know the salary "cap" was based on projected income and that a business can take a conservative or an aggressive stance on those numbers. The Sox income projection could easily vary by several million dollars. I guess in their experience, taking a conservative estimate on advertising, viewership, attendance, etc. is the way to go. Some businesses find it limits their growth.

Are you just going to keep bashing us because we're younger then you? That's great that you've lived longer then me. So because of that anything I say is wrong. I know the history of this franchise but that has nothing to do with my point. Just an example here but would you trade maggs for freddy garcia, jeremy reed, scott williamson, and urbina? Like I said that is just an example but that might be what you could get for maggs money.

[WhiteSox311]

I don't think any of this matters...it's kinda obvious from reports from turning down offers :finger that maggs wants to go elsewhere.....

[CWSGuy406]

Fine - Yasny and Texsox - I'm too stupid, I guess just because I'm too young.

 

You want to pay Maggs 14 million? Fine - but it isn't going to get us any closer to a World Series Title, especially if the payroll is at 65 million.

 

I can do Math - and that would be about a fifth of our payroll on one guy. That worked with Albert Belle and Frank Thomas, now didn't it?

[YASNY]

I think I may be able to simplify this. It appears to me TexSox is looking at this from one perspective, and this is just simply a Sox fan and a baseball fan. He's tired of financial aspects of the game. Forgot about how much money any player in the game makes and just look at the players skills and abilities, and you'll have an idea of where he is coming from. At least, I think I'm reading him right. If not, TexSox, I apologize.

 

After a few unfruitful decades, you get tired of hearing excuses for not winning. You get tired of rebuilding plans. You get tired of seeing a Goose Gossage become a dominant reliever for other teams, for example. It seems to be a never ending cycle. From Bill Veeck trading off Johnny Callison, Norm Cash and Earl Battey to the infamous '97 white flag trade. As a long time fan, this stuff just really gets old.

[Rowand44]

I think I may be able to simplify this.  It appears to me TexSox is looking at this from one perspective, and this is just simply a Sox fan and a baseball fan.  He's tired of financial aspects of the game.  Forgot about how much money any player in the game makes and just look at the players skills and abilities, and you'll have an idea of where he is coming from.  At least, I think I'm reading him right.  If not, TexSox, I apologize. 

That's great yasny but the sox don't have an infinite amount of money we aren't the yankees. 14 Million dollars spent on one player that doesn't put up numbers to earn 14 million on a 65 million dollar payroll is stupid. cwsguy406 and I have already stated that we'd love to have maggs back and that having a self imposed budget sucks. But with that budget you CAN'T pay one player 14 million dollars you end up with to many holes on the team such as no 5th starter or only a couple of reliable relief pitchers. Then texsox comes back and says we don't understand business and baseball because we're young. If he's trying to say forget jr's budget and just sign maggs then he's obviously the one who doesn't understand this game. The sox have a good offensive core maggs or no maggs and I think they're proving that right now. Pitching wins and if you have a 14 million dollar right fielder it's hard to fill every pitching hole.

[CWSGuy406]

I think I may be able to simplify this.  It appears to me TexSox is looking at this from one perspective, and this is just simply a Sox fan and a baseball fan.  He's tired of financial aspects of the game.  Forgot about how much money any player in the game makes and just look at the players skills and abilities, and you'll have an idea of where he is coming from.  At least, I think I'm reading him right.  If not, TexSox, I apologize. 

 

After a few unfruitful decades, you get tired of hearing excuses for not winning.  You get tired of rebuilding plans.  You get tired of seeing a Goose Gossage become a dominant reliever for other teams, for example.  It seems to be a never ending cycle.  From Bill Veeck trading off Johnny Callison, Norm Cash and Earl Battey to the infamous '97 white flag trade.  As a long time fan, this stuff just really gets old.

Right - and I can understand that to a degree, obviously my age won't allow me to the fullest extent but....

 

The way I see it - I want a World Series Title too. And I want Maggs to be a lifetime White Sox.

 

But I AM looking at the financial aspect of it. And I see an owner who, right or wrong (wrong), has a set budget, right around 65 million, that could increase on a playoff berth.

 

It's frustrating to see a homegrown star like Magglio walk, but he wants 14-15 million, and he won't budge on it. IMO, he deserves 13 million at most, a little more than what Garret Anderson and Bobby Abreu make.

 

But see - you're making this out to be like, just because we let Maggs walk, means we're rebuilding. Which I don't see it that way at all.

 

When the Athletics let go of Jason Giambi and Johnny Damon one year, and Miguel Tejada the next year, did they have to have rebuilding years? No. Why? Because when you have the Big 3, they draft well, and they sign the right people. We need to get our pitching first, and by signing Maggs to a contract with that amount of money, IMO it leaves Kenny hamstrung...

[YASNY]

That's great yasny but the sox don't have an infinite amount of money we aren't the yankees.  14 Million dollars spent on one player that doesn't put up numbers to earn 14 million on a 65 million dollar payroll is stupid.  cwsguy406 and I have already stated that we'd love to have maggs back and that having a self imposed budget sucks.  But with that budget you CAN'T pay one player 14 million dollars you end up with to many holes on the team such as no 5th starter or only a couple of reliable relief pitchers.  Then texsox comes back and says we don't understand business and baseball because we're young.  If he's trying to say forget jr's budget and just sign maggs then he's obviously the one who doesn't understand this game.  The sox have a good offensive core maggs or no maggs and I think they're proving that right now.  Pitching wins and if you have a 14 million dollar right fielder it's hard to fill every pitching hole.

I totally understand what you are saying. But then, I remember a couple of posts from a 16 year old kid telling TexSox he has no clue about economics. I'm sorry, but that is totally ludicrous. I mean how many 16 year old kids have had to worry about putting a meal on the table for the family ... and then being able to do it every night. I'm not trying to be insulting, and you guys have made some very valid points. I'm saying that leaving the financial aspects out of it, and just looking at it like a fan and nothing more, that I can totally understand where TexSox is coming from.

[YASNY]

Right - and I can understand that to a degree, obviously my age won't allow me to the fullest extent but....

 

The way I see it - I want a World Series Title too.  And I want Maggs to be a lifetime White Sox.

 

But I AM looking at the financial aspect of it.  And I see an owner who, right or wrong (wrong), has a set budget, right around 65 million, that could increase on a playoff berth.

 

It's frustrating to see a homegrown star like Magglio walk, but he wants 14-15 million, and he won't budge on it.  IMO, he deserves 13 million at most, a little more than what Garret Anderson and Bobby Abreu make.

 

But see - you're making this out to be like, just because we let Maggs walk, means we're rebuilding.  Which I don't see it that way at all.

 

When the Athletics let go of Jason Giambi and Johnny Damon one year, and Miguel Tejada the next year, did they have to have rebuilding years?  No.  Why?  Because when you have the Big 3, they draft well, and they sign the right people.  We need to get our pitching first, and by signing Maggs to a contract with that amount of money, IMO it leaves Kenny hamstrung...

That's what I'm trying to point out. You ARE looking at the financial aspect of it and he is not. He JUST wants a winner and is tired of all the excuses. He's lived it for decades and you've been through it for a few years. You each have different perspectives. The fact is, you are BOTH correct. It's just your point of view that differs.

[Rowand44]

I totally understand what you are saying.  But then, I remember a couple of posts from a 16 year old kid telling TexSox he has no clue about economics.  I'm sorry, but that is totally ludicrous. I mean how many 16 year old kids have had to worry about putting a meal on the table for the family ... and then being able to do it every night.  I'm not trying to be insulting, and you guys have made some very valid points.  I'm saying that leaving the financial aspects out of it, and just looking at it like a fan and nothing more, that I can totally understand where TexSox is coming from.

I'm talking about the economics of baseball. He keeps saying I know nothing because I'm younger then him.... I guess because I'm young I'm completely wrong. If what you said is what tex is trying to say just sign maggs no matter what it takes on a budget that's not understanding the situation and the ability of this franchise to spend money....correct?

[CWSGuy406]

That's what I'm trying to point out.  You ARE looking at the financial aspect of it and he is not.  He JUST wants a winner and is tired of all the excuses. He's lived it for decades and you've been through it for a few years.  You each have different perspectives.  The fact is, you are BOTH correct.  It's just your point of view that differs.

But I don't see how signing Maggs to a 14 million dollar contract on a 65 million dollar budget helps us win?

[Chisoxfn]

I have no problem with CWS's approach. However, if the Sox do good this year and make the playoffs, they will not let Maggs walk. This reason doesn't have anything to do with being wise with the money so to speak, but has everything to do with how losing Maggs would end up hurting the marketability of a franchise that finally looks to be drawing more interest.

 

In this case, it would be incredibly detrimental to dump Maggs if they make a run. I also believe if the Sox fail this year, they will probably lower the payroll by about 5 mill.

 

I do like the idea of getting some of those FA pitchers though. Derek Lowe could be good because I love his sinker and he's struggling this year, although he may really overvalue himself. If the BoSox want him, thats where he will stay.

 

I also like Odalis Perez a lot and Freddy Garcia is solid. The question is what type of money will those guys be getting. Don't hold your breath for Delgado or what not and I wouldn't give Percy money. He's probably going to retire at the end of the season and his hip is way too much of a concern.

 

And remember, while the Sox lose 11 mill of the books in Koch and Jose, you also have to note that Konerko's contract goes up about a mill, Lee's goes up about 2 mill, Buehrle's goes up at least a mill, and you probably have Elo going up 3-4 mill (if you renegotiate). Plus were talking Garland's contract will go up (I think the Sox will sign him long term).

 

Now all of a sudden you pretty much have used up most of that 11 mill (Also remember Thomas will be at 8 mill next year). This means the team will be at the current payroll at the start of next year without any big moves. However, you lose Maggs then they will definately have to make a splash (especially if they do make the playoffs) and they have 14 mill to throw around.

 

The logic to this is, if they make the playoffs, they aren't cutting payroll, in fact, you could realistically say it goes up about 6 mill, meaning the Sox have 20 mill to throw around.

 

You can maybe throw some at Beltran (one player) to replace Maggs or land 2 stud pitchers, probably costing you 15-16 mill. This now means you have 4 mill to get a bat to replace Maggs. You can find offense though, imo, whether by trade or what not. Heck, Jose Guillen is making 3 mill a year.

 

So basically, my thinking is, if the Sox lose, they have 8-10 mill of flexibility after losing Maggs (who knows if Elo resigns as well). If the Sox win, you have about 20 mill to throw around.

[YASNY]

What we are trying to say is that the payroll budget that the organization imposes doesn't necessarily have to be. They have the option of setting the budget at double what it is, if they so choose. They could pull a Wayne Hizinga ('97 Marlins), get the talent necessary even though it is at an operating loss and put a WS champion on the field. Signing Maggs could be done. IF they were willing to pay Maggs. That budget doesn't HAVE to be 65 million. It's a corporate decision that has been made.

[Rowand44]

What we are trying to say is that the payroll budget that the organization imposes doesn't necessarily have to be.  They have the option of setting the budget at double what it is, if they so choose.  They could pull a Wayne Hizinga ('97 Marlins), get the talent necessary even though it is at an operating loss and put a WS champion on the field.  Signing Maggs could be done.  IF they were willing to pay Maggs.  That budget doesn't HAVE to be 65 million.  It's a corporate decision that has been made.

We know that but it's not going to change. JR has his budget and is going to have his budget. If the sox had infinite amount of money to spend then go ahead and keep maggs. I love maggs but his numbers don't equal a 14 million dollar a year contract especially when your on a jr type budget. I've also stated I hate the restriction jr puts on kenny but thats the way it is and thats the way it's going to be. It sucks that the sox are on a budget but they are and because of that it just isn't smart to spend 14 million on one player. You win with pitching and there is some damn good fa's this coming offseason. I've said this plenty of times but the offensive core is there.... willie, uribe, frank, carlos, pk, olivo. Add pitching depth with that 14 million instead of paying one player that much.

[Texsox]

I know the history of this franchise but that has nothing to do with my point.  Just an example here but would you trade maggs for freddy garcia, jeremy reed, scott williamson, and urbina?  Like I said that is just an example but that might be what you could get for maggs money.

What might be. That's what keeps everyone coming back. Maybe we could get Mulder and Zito as well. Do you have any idea how many planets have to align for that to happen? Do you really think in the next off season we will outbid every other team for starting pitching?