Kris Honel

[Palehosefan]

That would be a big holdup on Gio. Are they questioning his durability or his growth potential? Or both?

[Hatchetman]

I've seen plenty of little guys succeed. More than succeed. If that's the only reason people are downgrading him, that's great.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I've seen plenty of little guys succeed. More than succeed. If that's the only reason people are downgrading him, that's great.

Ya, like Jim Parque for instance

 

[Hatchetman]

Well, actually yes, Parque was pretty good before the arm injury...

[Rex Hudler]

I've seen plenty of little guys succeed. More than succeed. If that's the only reason people are downgrading him, that's great.

How many little guys do you see as #1's in the big leagues?? Hudson is the only one I can think of, and he is 6'1" and athletic enough that he was a CF in college.

[Rex Hudler]

Ya, like Jim Parque for instance

 

Funny you mentioned him........ Parque is the pitcher Gonzalez was compared to as far as stuff. Size probably had something to do with it, but Parque is the comparison I was given.

[Hatchetman]

How many little guys do you see as #1's in the big leagues??    Hudson is the only one I can think of, and he is 6'1" and athletic enough that he was a CF in college.

well, quickly, granted some might not be #1s, but at least #2s....some guys listed as 6'1" or less:

 

maddux, pedro, glavine, hampton, moyer, drabek, alex fernandez, key, cone, soto, tudor, valenzuela, higuera, steib, hoyt, dotson, niekro, robin roberts, warren spahn, guidry, wilbur wood, denny mclain, whitey ford, early wynn, bob feller, mickey lolich, seaver, tiant, marichal, dennis martinez, pierce, sutton, vida blue.....

[Rex Hudler]

well, quickly, granted some might not be #1s, but at least #2s....some guys listed as 6'1" or less:

 

maddux, pedro, glavine, hampton, moyer, drabek, alex fernandez, key, cone, soto, tudor, valenzuela, higuera, steib, hoyt, dotson, niekro, robin roberts, warren spahn, guidry, wilbur wood, denny mclain, whitey ford, early wynn, bob feller, mickey lolich, seaver, tiant, marichal, dennis martinez, pierce, sutton, vida blue.....

let's talk modern day and slight........ Gio is what, 5'9" 170???

 

With Hudson I was saying that at 6'1" he doesn't really qualify in my mind as being real small. Pedro is the obvious exception, but I doubt you will find many others..

[CWSGuy406]

let's talk modern day and slight........  Gio is what, 5'9" 170???

 

With Hudson I was saying that at 6'1" he doesn't really qualify in my mind as being real small.  Pedro is the obvious exception, but I doubt you will find many others..

I was just going to ask that, Rex. So - you would consider Pedro an exception to the rule, like you referred Moyer as - as well?

[Rex Hudler]

I was just going to ask that, Rex.  So - you would consider Pedro an exception to the rule, like you referred Moyer as - as well?

Isn't it obvious that Pedro is an exception? It is as simple as the numbers. If you had a high number of #1 starters (starters period) built like Pedro then he wouldn't be an exception, now would he?

[danman31]

And Pedro's lack of size has really cost him injury wise. He'd be in his prime still if it weren't for injuries, imo.

[Chisoxfn]

Frame/size mostly......      I know there are exceptions, but I am not willing to bet my house on it....

Its gotta be the size. Just not many starters are sucessful at his stature. Sure Oswalt and a few others have, but their are more the exception then the rule. However, you can't doubt his hook at this point, but I know their have been some reports that he's tipping it at this point because his motion is a bit different when he throws the hook.

[Hatchetman]

I think being small might be correllated to injuries.

 

I'm assuming Gio is 5'11", as he's listed. At 18, he could easily add another inch.

If he's 5'9", that's another story.

 

All those guys I listed would succeed today. I could have given you a hundred more old timers. Bob Feller threw close to 100 MPH..you think he couldn't pitch today? The only "old-timers" I threw in were hall of famers or close to it.

 

If Gio could be Alex Fernandez, I'd be pleased as punch.

 

Little guys probably tend not to throw as hard, so they arent' drafted anyway. The absense of little guys in the majors doesn't imply anything about little guys who actually ARE in the majors.

[Rex Hudler]

I think being small might be correllated to injuries.

 

I'm assuming Gio is 5'11", as he's listed. At 18, he could easily add another inch.

If he's 5'9", that's another story.

 

All those guys I listed would succeed today. I could have given you a hundred more old timers. Bob Feller threw close to 100 MPH..you think he couldn't pitch today? The only "old-timers" I threw in were hall of famers or close to it.

 

If Gio could be Alex Fernandez, I'd be pleased as punch.

 

Little guys probably tend not to throw as hard, so they arent' drafted anyway. The absense of little guys in the majors doesn't imply anything about little guys who actually ARE in the majors.

Alex Fernandez WAS NOT a little guy. Once again, I ask how many diminutive top flight starters there are in the big leagues right now? Not many

 

Your list was crap, because very few of those guys fit a description of slight. The bottom line is no one knows how Gio will end up. I am just telling you that based on his frame, some people don't see a ton of room for improvement other than just becoming a better pitcher. That is not a bad thing, it is just a thing. Right now, the odds of him making the big leagues and sticking at all are still long. Let's give the guy a few years and see what happens.

[Hatchetman]

We're talking about short guys. Alex Fernandez was a short, stocky guy. The video I saw of Gio, he was well proportioned. He's listed at 5'11, 180 and only 18. I guarantee he'll gain at least 10-15 pounds as he matures. That will not be slight. Now, if he's 5'6", 125 as you imply, that's a different story.

 

Everyone thought he was going to be a 1st or 2nd round pick. The "consenus" was that he had a very high upside.

 

As far as his "stuff" improving, maybe it won't. But a 88-90 mph fastball, good curve from a lefty is fine.

[Hatchetman]

I think oswalt, pedro, and santana are 3 of the top 10 starters in the majors. All are slight.

[Rex Hudler]

We're talking about short guys. Alex Fernandez was a short, stocky guy. The video I saw of Gio, he was well proportioned. He's listed at 5'11, 180 and only 18. I guarantee he'll gain at least 10-15 pounds as he matures. That will not be slight. Now, if he's 5'6", 125 as you imply, that's a different story.

 

Everyone thought he was going to be a 1st or 2nd round pick. The "consenus" was that he had a very high upside.

 

As far as his "stuff" improving, maybe it won't. But a 88-90 mph fastball, good curve from a lefty is fine.

First off, I NEVER talked about height exclusively. This whole conversation was about his slight frame, so try and keep up.

 

You are correct on Pedro and Oswalt. Santana is iffy.

 

Perhaps you are correct and those in the Sox organization don't know what the hell they are talking about? Maybe Gio will become the next Ron Guidry. No one knows. But based on the odds, I'd say the chances of that happening are slim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: before anyone takes this out of context, no one is down on Gio. The people I have talked to are just doubtful he will become a dominant #1 type starter.

[Randar68]

Funny you mentioned him........    Parque is the pitcher Gonzalez was compared to as far as stuff.  Size probably had something to do with it, but Parque is the comparison I was given.

As an 18-year-old, Gio has a better fastball, a better curve, and probably better command of both those pitches than Parque had.

 

He has some work to do, but I think yyou're going to see a different body-shape from him next year. He had some "baby-fat" and some weight to "shift". He's not skinny because of metabolism, per se, but working with strength and diet guys in the offseason should turn him into a much more muscular kid. He's not "skinny" like BMac was, by any means. He's not tall, true, but his frame is sufficient to be built like a Tim Hudson, who is more muscular than most would give him credit for.

 

Gio is going to have to learn a 4th pitch, probably, and improve on his change, maybe change his grip to get a little better movement, but with him, it's all about health.

 

Other than height and left-handedness, the Parque comparison really holds no water at all.

[Hatchetman]

First off, I NEVER talked about height exclusively.  This whole conversation was about his slight frame, so try and keep up.

Having seen him on tape, it never occured to me that you were talking about his "body frame." It's obvious he's no stick figure.

[Rex Hudler]

As an 18-year-old, Gio has a better fastball, a better curve, and probably better command of both those pitches than Parque had.

 

He has some work to do, but I think yyou're going to see a different body-shape from him next year.  He had some "baby-fat" and some weight to "shift".  He's not skinny because of metabolism, per se, but working with strength and diet guys in the offseason should turn him into a much more muscular kid.  He's not "skinny" like BMac was, by any means.  He's not tall, true, but his frame is sufficient to be built like a Tim Hudson, who is more muscular than most would give him credit for.

 

Gio is going to have to learn a 4th pitch, probably, and improve on his change, maybe change his grip to get a little better movement, but with him, it's all about health.

 

Other than height and left-handedness, the Parque comparison really holds no water at all.

That's interesting because two Sox staffers I know both likened his stuff to Parque's when he first signed. Granted Parque was three years older and coming out of UCLA at the time, so that is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Chisoxfn]

As an 18-year-old, Gio has a better fastball, a better curve, and probably better command of both those pitches than Parque had.

 

He has some work to do, but I think yyou're going to see a different body-shape from him next year.  He had some "baby-fat" and some weight to "shift".  He's not skinny because of metabolism, per se, but working with strength and diet guys in the offseason should turn him into a much more muscular kid.  He's not "skinny" like BMac was, by any means.  He's not tall, true, but his frame is sufficient to be built like a Tim Hudson, who is more muscular than most would give him credit for.

 

Gio is going to have to learn a 4th pitch, probably, and improve on his change, maybe change his grip to get a little better movement, but with him, it's all about health.

 

Other than height and left-handedness, the Parque comparison really holds no water at all.

The good thing about Bmac is he was able to add muscle over the past offseason and should be able to do more of the same.

 

As far as Gio goes, he's still in A ball, lets see what happens as he moves through the system. I know Rex isn't writing him off, but your right, at a short stature the odds are definately stacked up against you in terms of durability, especially as a starter. Doesn't mean he won't make it and remember, very few guys are legit potential #1's. Thats a term that gets thrown around way too much if you ask me.

 

Like some have mentioned ,their aren't more then 10 or 15 true #1's, if not less.

[Randar68]

That's interesting because two Sox staffers I know both likened his stuff to Parque's when he first signed.  Granted Parque was three years older and coming out of UCLA at the time, so that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Yikes.