anyone else not agree with ozzies lineups

[flippedoutpunk]

You can't just throw money at the problem and expect that to be your answer.

Exactly.. Were talking about a baseball team here, not an ex-girlfriend

[israel4ever]

Ya gotta spend $ to get they type of players we need, unless you have the talent to trade for them...which WE DON'T!!!

[Rex Hudler]

Ya gotta spend $ to get they type of players we need, unless you have the talent to trade for them...which WE DON'T!!!

The point is the whole approach......... using patchwork each year to try and win......

 

They need to change to more of a 3-4 year plan, but that will piss off all the fans. Throwing money at the problem just masks the problem and doesn't solve anything long term.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

The better ? is how could anyone agree with Ozzie's lineups.

[YASNY]

No, note the sarcasm with which he says "Yes.  Ozzie's a joke as manager."  Implying he isn't.  Then he goes on to the classic 'I'm sure you could do a better job' rebuttle, which never really makes any sense.

Ok. No implications here. Ozzie is not a joke as a manager. But, if someone keeps throwing out lineups that they think should be used, and then criticizes the manager for not using that lineup when they have no idea about what is being discussed between the manager and the GM, or what their "rest of the season" goals are .... There, my friend, is an example of a joke.

[soxfan420]

Ok.  No implications here.  Ozzie is not a joke as a manager.  But, if someone keeps throwing out lineups that they think should be used, and then criticizes the manager for not using that lineup when they have no idea about what is being discussed between the manager and the GM, or what their "rest of the season" goals are .... There, my friend, is an example of a joke.

yea lets play valdez at 2b and gload in the outfield those sound like great ideas, and ppl that are not gonna be here next year that are hitting .200 still play instead of the youngins we will need to step up and play, those are all great manageral moves.

[Guest JimH]

yea lets play valdez at 2b and gload in the outfield those sound like great ideas, and ppl that are not gonna be here next year that are hitting .200 still play instead of the youngins we will need to step up and play, those are all great manageral moves.

Just because a guy is young doesn't mean he'll be a part of the future here.

 

They've already made the decisions on a lot of these young guys.

[israel4ever]

The point is the whole approach......... using patchwork each year to  try and win......

 

They need to change to more of a 3-4 year plan, but that will piss off all the fans.  Throwing money at the problem just masks the problem and doesn't solve anything long term.

IF the Sox continue to go after mediocre talent, (i.e. Everett, Alomar) instead of spending money on bona fide stars, (e.g. we couldn't have used Pudge Rodriguez as our catcher, could we?), they'll never be any better than mediocre.

 

Guys like Harris, Uribe, Davis, etc., are "nice" players, but they are not now, nor will they ever be stars, or the types of players around which you can build a championship team.

 

We need to upgrade (REALLY UPGRADE!) at C, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, plus we NEED 2 more starters, some bullpen help (a REAL closer would be nice!), and some bench help. Other than that, the Sox are just fine.

 

Now, someone will say, "how are we gonna pay for all these upgrades?", to which I will respond (AGAIN!), Sox ownership has the money to pay for these upgrades, they just refuse to do so. They don't want to cut into their profit margin. Makes good business-sense, doesn't make good baseball-sense.

[Guest JimH]

The way I've been told by people who are well aware of the Sox financial situation ...

 

The Sox try to run a zero sum operation. They do not go into the red and try to put every available dollar into the team.

 

That being said, I think the payroll will go up for 2005. The problem continues to be there's not enough star power coming up from the minor leagues. Too many "misses" from Sox drafts.

[Rex Hudler]

Now, someone will say, "how are we gonna pay for all these upgrades?", to which I will respond (AGAIN!), Sox ownership has the money to pay for these upgrades, they just refuse to do so. They don't want to cut into their profit margin. Makes good business-sense, doesn't make good baseball-sense.

 

And how do you know how much money Sox ownership makes? How do you know what their profit margins are? Prove to me they are pocketing large sums of money and I MIGHT listen. Until then, you are just howling nonsense.

[israel4ever]

And how do you know how much money Sox ownership makes?  How do you know what their profit margins are?  Prove to me they are pocketing large sums of money and I MIGHT listen.  Until then, you are just howling nonsense.

I know this because JR and his partners are very astute businessmen. They would have sold the team a long time ago if it was not profitable.

[Guest JimH]

Reinsdorf and his cronies make tons and tons of money from business dealings totally independent of the White Sox. If the White Sox were hemorraging cash every year, yeah, I'm sure he would look to sell.

 

They run the team not to lose money vs. running it to make a ton of money.

 

Reinsdorf, nor any of the investors, need any White Sox money to put dinner on the table. They're all very prominent, wealthy people who acquired and continue to acquire their wealth from other businesses besides the White Sox.

[israel4ever]

Reinsdorf and his cronies make tons and tons of money from business dealings totally independent of the White Sox.  If the White Sox were hemorraging cash every year, yeah, I'm sure he would look to sell.

 

They run the team not to lose money vs. running it to make a ton of money.

 

Reinsdorf, nor any of the investors, need any White Sox money to put dinner on the table.  They're all very prominent, wealthy people who acquired and continue to acquire their wealth from other businesses besides the White Sox.

Maybe...but the truth is, they have made a substantial amount of money from owning the team...they need to reinvest some of it to improve the product on the field.

 

If not, then I NEVER want to hear JR talk about how he'd trade all 6 Bulls' Championships for one World Series championship. He needs to stop pissing on our legs and telling us it's raining!

[Guest JimH]

but the truth is, they have made a substantial amount of money from owning the team

Curious how you know this to be a fact, or are you assuming it's because they're astute businessmen and therefore must be raking in the cash from owning the Sox?

 

Their philosophy has always ... always been to reinvest it into the team and run the White Sox as a zero sum operation.

 

The mistakes have been made with HOW they've reinvested it in the team. I can give you a list of about a dozen ways.

 

Look at the Twins. They operate under a far tighter budget than the Sox. They seem to do ok. Oakland is another example. So is Florida.

 

They have a budget and some big money players taking a large part of that budget. You say sign Ivan Rodriguez at $10M per year ... well, you've got guys like Maggs, Frank, Lee, Konerko, Buehrle making big coin, there wasn't enough left to add a $10M guy and fit it in the budget. This is assuming, and knowing, they run the Sox as a zero sum business.

 

It's all about the ability to put a team together, and getting the most bang for the buck. Yankees have astronomical revenue from TV, advertising, etc. and that's why they can spend as they do. No other team spends like that, they simply can't. The other teams don't have the revenue. Cubs and Red Sox spend it because they practically sell out all their games before April 1st.

 

The only way to maximize franchise value and bring value to the investors is to run it like a good business. That includes plowing profits back into the team, much like any business plows their profits back in to improve things. That's one reason why the franchise is worth so much more now than it was years ago. It's run well from an accounting and financial standpoint.

 

Where it's NOT run well is from the scouting, player development, and often the player personnel side of things. Where Reinsdorf is at fault here (and he admits it as a weakness) is he's far too loyal to people.

 

He was way too loyal to Gallas (unrelated directly to the baseball side).

 

One could argue he was too loyal to Schueler.

 

He may prove to be too loyal to KW.

 

He is certainly too loyal to some of the scouting and development people.

 

That's where the problem lies. Don't buy into all the internet message board hype about how cheap this guy is because he runs his team like a business.

[israel4ever]

Curious how you know this to be a fact, or are you assuming it's because they're astute businessmen and therefore must be raking in the cash from owning the Sox?

 

Their philosophy has always ... always been to reinvest it into the team and run the White Sox as a zero sum operation.

 

The mistakes have been made with HOW they've reinvested it in the team.  I can give you a list of about a dozen ways.

 

Look at the Twins.  They operate under a far tighter budget than the Sox.  They seem to do ok.  Oakland is another example.  So is Florida.

 

They have a budget and some big money players taking a large part of that budget.  You say sign Ivan Rodriguez at $10M per year ... well, you've got guys like Maggs, Frank, Lee, Konerko, Buehrle making big coin, there wasn't enough left to add a $10M guy and fit it in the budget.  This is assuming, and knowing, they run the Sox as a zero sum business.

 

It's all about the ability to put a team together, and getting the most bang for the buck.  Yankees have astronomical revenue from TV, advertising, etc. and that's why they can spend as they do.  No other team spends like that, they simply can't.  The other teams don't have the revenue.  Cubs and Red Sox spend it because they practically sell out all their games before April 1st.

 

The only way to maximize franchise value and bring value to the investors is to run it like a good business.  That includes plowing profits back into the team, much like any business plows their profits back in to improve things.  That's one reason why the franchise is worth so much more now than it was years ago.  It's run well from an accounting and financial standpoint.

 

Where it's NOT run well is from the scouting, player development, and often the player personnel side of things.  Where Reinsdorf is at fault here (and he admits it as a weakness) is he's far too loyal to people.

 

He was way too loyal to Gallas (unrelated directly to the baseball side).

 

One could argue he was too loyal to Schueler.

 

He may prove to be too loyal to KW.

 

He is certainly too loyal to some of the scouting and development people.

 

That's where the problem lies.  Don't buy into all the internet message board hype about how cheap this guy is because he runs his team like a business.

You are right...I don't know this to be a fact, I am making a semi-educated guess.

 

But here is what I do know to be a fact...the Sox have only been WS contenders ONE TIME since JR and his partners took over the team (and that was in the strike shortenend year that JR most likely killed!). They have been mediocre (at best) every other year of JR's tenure. Obviously, his way is not THE way!

 

JR and ownership do run the organization as cheaply as possible. Why do you think they have never hired a manager who had prior major league managerial experience? Do you think Ozzie was the best managerial candidate? Or was he the cheapest candidate? Same for KW, best candidate or cheapest candidate?

[Guest JimH]

You are right...I don't know this to be a fact, I am making a semi-educated guess.

 

But here is what I do know to be a fact...the Sox have only been WS contenders ONE TIME since JR and his partners took over the team (and that was in the strike shortenend year that JR most likely killed!). They have been mediocre (at best) every other year of JR's tenure. Obviously, his way is not THE way!

 

JR and ownership do run the organization as cheaply as possible. Why do you think they have never hired a manager who had prior major league managerial experience? Do you think Ozzie was the best managerial candidate? Or was he the cheapest candidate? Same for KW, best candidate or cheapest candidate?

Completely agree with the mediocrity part. There's no defending the lack of tangible results. I'm likely a bit older than you, and my dad is getting up in years and I would love to have him see a World Series, so my level of frustration is right there with you ... perhaps greater.

 

The White Sox made a conscious choice to go with a guy who had a link to the franchise (Guillen). One could argue it made sense from a marketing standpoint, and could also argue Guillen had the baseball smarts from his playing days and experience with winning organizations from a coaching standpoint (Atlanta, Florida).

 

I don't think Guillen is the problem ... yet. Another underachieving year and maybe I will. I think he deserves a shot after getting a chance to put his stamp on the team ... meaning, players he wants vs. players he's inherited.

 

As for other managerial candidates, I don't think Gaston was the right guy. Same demeanor as Manuel, and I haven't seen any other teams rushing out to hire him either. Art Howe is a bust in NY, Francona is doing a good job in Boston but hey, look at the talent and leadership he's got over there. They tried to talk to Tom Kelly and Jim Leyland, both said no.

 

There may have been somebody better, but all in all I don't think it's bad management to bring in a guy and his coaches who all have an identity with the franchise. Yes, I would prefer a guy who has won several World Series titles, but that guy is not out there.

 

As for not hiring a guy with experience, your argument certainly holds water. They haven't. But two things to consider: there are legitimate reasons why managers get fired. Either they haven't won, or they can't work well enough with people. All the great managers started somewhere ... guys like Piniella, LaRussa, etc. Who knew Jack McKeon would win a World Series? The people in Florida hated that hire, and now he's a genius. He'd also been fired a couple of times before. Every manager hire is a gamble. It's fair to say the Sox reduced that gamble by hiring somebody who bleeds White Sox and is someone who's very well known and understood by the owner and GM. Remember though ... over the years the Sox hired managers like Jim Fregosi and Jeff Torborg, both of whom had significant experience.

 

On the GM side of things ... Ron Schueler had lots of experience before the Sox hired him, he was big time in the middle of things with Oakland. Larry Himes had tons of experience with other teams. Williams was the farm director, worked closely with Reinsdorf and is a Stanford guy (smart). They promoted from within. Are there or were there better candidates? Meaning, are there better GM's out there? Undoubtedly. Were they available when Schueler resigned in late 2000? Not so sure. They could've had Dan Evans but he's now gone in LA, so there was something about Evans the LA people didn't like. Jason is close to that LA situation and he hates Evans. But your point is well taken, they could have hired somebody else and maybe that person would have worked out better.

 

I still believe, and strongly believe, the problem is the guys they've got in place. The minor league guys and some of the major league scouts. Williams is getting recommendations from his farm system guys on the 5th starter situation, for example. KW does go down to the farm but he's got to rely on his minor league people for recommendations. They are the guys telling him people like Felix Diaz, Jon Rauch, Arnie Munoz, etc. are ready to come up and be the 5th guy. This has happened a couple of years in a row. There is NO WAY your farm system should not be able to develop at least one capable starter per year. Even a depth guy like Grilli, for example.

 

Very simply, the Sox are not developing players properly, nor are they drafting the right guys. Many here have been preaching for a few years about the need for speed, defense, and on base % guys. Now Guillen comes in for 2004 and says the same thing. Is he wrong? I don't think so. And yet, we are drafting power guys and power arms ... all "project" guys ... and we wonder why we never get production from the minor leagues. Yes, KW has traded prospects, he is aggressive and that's ok by me. But he needs to look at his minor league people and stop being so loyal. This guy Duane Shafer has been there 20+ years, doing the drafting for most of those years and they continually go for power pitchers (Purvis, Wyatt Allen, Dan Wright, there are dozens of examples) and what do these guys have in common? They can't throw strikes. And what is one sure way for a baseball team to beat themselves? Walk guys. And how many games have the White Sox beaten themsevles this year? LOTS.

 

Almost every single GM is a capable individual. Yes, some are better than others. We lauded KW last year because he was so aggressive in landing Colon. He out-aggressived Brian Cashman this year and landed Garcia. Many here criticized Schueler for being passive (including most of the Chicago media).

 

2005 is the litmus test for KW, and for the most part it will be for Guillen too. KW has to change the complexion of a team he's mostly held together for 4 years and they haven't won anything. He's made mistakes on keeping the team together (Valentin, for one) because he gets blinded by certain attributes.

 

As for Reinsdorf, if you bring in another owner (as if we could do that by just demanding it on internet message boards ), that ownership group will very likely run the franchise like a business too. You simply have to do a better job scouting, drafting, and developing players than the next guy. Reinsdorf is at fault IMO for not holding certain employee's feet to the fire. Why it's taken so long for him to look at the production of the farm system is beyond me. Why he can't see that these players who come up from the farm system can't do baseball fundamentals is beyond me. The same guys have been there forever, and that needs to be changed.

[israel4ever]

I really can't argue with anything you've said.

 

However, look at the Yankees for example. I know that no one can compete with their tv deal, and that gives them a huge leg up on the competition, but, they haven't really been built through the draft, and they are in WS contention every year. The same is true of the Cards, Giants, Bosox, Braves and Angels.

 

Free agency may be a "crutch", but it is a very valuable one, and I feel the Sox are doing their fans a disservice by not making better use thereof!

[The Critic]

IF the Sox continue to go after mediocre talent, (i.e. Everett, Alomar) instead of spending money on bona fide stars, (e.g. we couldn't have used Pudge Rodriguez as our catcher, could we?), they'll never be any better than mediocre.

 

Guys like Harris, Uribe, Davis, etc., are "nice" players, but they are not now, nor will they ever be stars, or the types of players around which you can build a championship team.

 

We need to upgrade (REALLY UPGRADE!) at C, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, plus we NEED 2 more starters, some bullpen help (a REAL closer would be nice!), and some bench help. Other than that, the Sox are just fine.

 

Now, someone will say, "how are we gonna pay for all these upgrades?", to which I will respond (AGAIN!), Sox ownership has the money to pay for these upgrades, they just refuse to do so. They don't want to cut into their profit margin. Makes good business-sense, doesn't make good baseball-sense.

For what it's worth, I don't think The Sox would have gone after Pudge because at that time they were counting on Olivo to be their guy - young catcher, great arm, had made some improvement offensively - so if they DID spend money, it probably would have gone for pitching anyway, and maybe a CF since Rowand was seen as a question mark before the season.

 

As you mentioned, catcher would be a possible position for an upgrade, among other positions, but who's going to be available as far as catchers go this offseason? I don't know.

I completely agree that pitching is still a primary need, since they still seem to have 2 solid guys, 2 maybes and a hole in the rotation.

 

I'm not envious of the GM's job in the next year or two. He's got to try to re-stock the minors while keeping a competitive major league team on the field. NOT going to be easy....

[Rex Hudler]

Exactly, which is why I think it may get worse before it gets better.

[israel4ever]

For what it's worth, I don't think The Sox would have gone after Pudge because at that time they were counting on Olivo to be their guy - young catcher, great arm, had made some improvement offensively - so if they DID spend money, it probably would have gone for pitching anyway, and maybe a CF since Rowand was seen as a question mark before the season.

 

As you mentioned, catcher would be a possible position for an upgrade, among other positions, but who's going to be available as far as catchers go this offseason? I don't know.

I completely agree that pitching is still a primary need, since they still seem to have 2 solid guys, 2 maybes and a hole in the rotation.

 

I'm not envious of the GM's job in the next year or two. He's got to try to re-stock the minors while keeping a competitive major league team on the field. NOT going to be easy....

Jason Varitek (BOS) and/or Mike Metheney (STL) would be definite upgrades at Catcher.

 

Or we could trade for Jason Kendall, but he makes a LOT of $$$.

[qwerty]

Jason Varitek (BOS) and/or Mike Metheney (STL) would be definite upgrades at Catcher.

 

Or we could trade for Jason Kendall, but he makes a LOT of $$$.

Varitek is too much money and matheny cannot hit very good either but does have an excellent glove. He will also demand 2-4 million a year because of his glove alone.

[YASNY]

I like KW's aggresiveness. The only noteworthy trade deadline deal Schuler ever made was the White Flag deal. And that was for all the wrong reasons.