Crazy trade idea

[Chisoxfn]

Hey wite, I love the idea of getting Guillen and he will be gone in the offseason. My thinking is the angels will have at least a little heat which means the Sox could maybe get him at a little lesser then so called market value.

 

That being said, I'd go with the Konerko for Pyrz and Jerome Williams and then acquire Jose Guillen for Jon Garland. The Angels get a good young pitcher that they once acquired (for Erstad...later to be nixed), so they can at least say they got something for Jose.

 

The Sox get Guillen, a player entering his prime, who to me gets a rap like Everett. I watched the guy all year and he did nothing but play his ass off. Now I have no idea what happens in the Angels clubhouse, but on the field the guy gave 110%. I'd stick Guillen in RF, Rowand in CF, and Lee in LF. Now before everyone jumps all over me saying thats still a right handed lineup, may I remind you Konerko is gone, replaced with Gload (a leftie), plus you have Everett on the bench to get ocassional playing time (thomas will get rest and I'm sure some of the of's will as well...although if the Sox wanted to trade him I see the reasons in doing that as well, but they would have to pick up salary). And then you have Pyrz (another lefty) in the lineup. So at the start of 2004 season you had a righty at 1b and a righty at c (Olivo). Now you have two new lefties and the Sox still will add another lefty with whomever they add to play 2b or ss with Uribe playing the other position.

 

I'd say both would be realistic deals

FA or Trade - SS or 2B

Aaron Rowand or Juan Uribe- CF

Carlos Lee - LF

Frank Thomas - DH

Jose Guillen - RF

Ross Gload - 1B

Juan Uribe (or Aaron Rowand)- ss or 2b

Aj Pyrzinski - C

Joe Crede (or if you want someone else, maybe a faster 3b; heck you even have the option of Uribe at 3b, Harris at 2b and hitting in the 9 hole and a FA shortstop for the top of the order).

 

Payroll wise thats about 26 million on offense. (not including bench players..aka 4 mill for Everett, which gives you 30 mill plus bench)

 

Rotation

Buehrle

Garcia

FA - Pavano...whoever

Contreras

Jerome Williams

 

Payroll Wise thats about 30 million, assuming 10 million for the FA signing (which I think is a little high)

 

Bullpen

Shingo

Marte

FA or trade

FA or trade

Cotts

Munoz/Diaz/etc

 

Thats about 10 mill, leaving 5 to 6 mill for the two FA/trade acquisitions

 

That gives a payroll of 66 million, meaning the Sox still have about 10 million to spend elsewhere. Of course a little bit more is going to go to offensive guys on the bench (remember I'm already counting Everett, so the rest of the bench won't be too expensive). THis means if the Sox really wanted to, they could add one way or another one more bat into the lineup or add another bat and spend a little more on the pen and get a closer, moving Marte/Shingo to the setup spot. I'm assuming this money would be spent on a 3B like Koskie and then using Crede for a young power arm (I think that can be had, although it may not be a guy thats proven) and then going after a legit closer.

 

Anyway, all in all, its a tone down from my multi trade suggestions and seems semi plausible. I think I set realistic value in the SF deal as well as the Angels deal, although the Sox may have to give the Angels something else to go with Garland (But I'd be willing).

[Chisoxfn]

Hey wite, I love the idea of getting Guillen and he will be gone in the offseason.  My thinking is the angels will have at least a little heat which means the Sox could maybe get him at a little lesser then so called market value. 

 

That being said, I'd go with the Konerko for Pyrz and Jerome Williams and then acquire Jose Guillen for Jon Garland.  The Angels get a good young pitcher that they once acquired (for Erstad...later to be nixed), so they can at least say they got something for Jose. 

 

The Sox get Guillen, a player entering his prime, who to me gets a rap like Everett.  I watched the guy all year and he did nothing but play his ass off.  Now I have no idea what happens in the Angels clubhouse, but on the field the guy gave 110%.  I'd stick Guillen in RF, Rowand in CF, and Lee in LF.  Now before everyone jumps all over me saying thats still a right handed lineup, may I remind you Konerko is gone, replaced with Gload (a leftie), plus you have Everett on the bench to get ocassional playing time (thomas will get rest and I'm sure some of the of's will as well...although if the Sox wanted to trade him I see the reasons in doing that as well, but they would have to pick up salary).  And then you have Pyrz (another lefty) in the lineup.  So at the start of 2004 season you had a righty at 1b and a righty at c (Olivo).  Now you have two new lefties and the Sox still will add another lefty with whomever they add to play 2b or ss with Uribe playing the other position. 

 

I'd say both would be realistic deals

FA or Trade - SS or 2B

Aaron Rowand or Juan Uribe- CF

Carlos Lee - LF

Frank Thomas - DH

Jose Guillen - RF

Ross Gload - 1B

Juan Uribe (or Aaron Rowand)- ss or 2b

Aj Pyrzinski - C

Joe Crede (or if you want someone else, maybe a faster 3b; heck you even have the option of Uribe at 3b, Harris at 2b and hitting in the 9 hole and a FA shortstop for the top of the order).

 

Payroll wise thats about 26 million on offense.  (not including bench players..aka 4 mill for Everett, which gives you 30 mill plus bench)

 

Rotation

Buehrle

Garcia

FA - Pavano...whoever

Contreras

Jerome Williams

 

Payroll Wise thats about 30 million, assuming 10 million for the FA signing (which I think is a little high)

 

Bullpen

Shingo

Marte

FA or trade

FA or trade

Cotts

Munoz/Diaz/etc

 

Thats about 10 mill, leaving 5 to 6 mill for the two FA/trade acquisitions

 

That gives a payroll of 66 million, meaning the Sox still have about 10 million to spend elsewhere.  Of course a little bit more is going to go to offensive guys on the bench (remember I'm already counting Everett, so the rest of the bench won't be too expensive).  THis means if the Sox really wanted to, they could add one way or another one more bat into the lineup or add another bat and spend a little more on the pen and get a closer, moving Marte/Shingo to the setup spot.  I'm assuming this money would be spent on a 3B like Koskie and then using Crede for a young power arm (I think that can be had, although it may not be a guy thats proven) and then going after a legit closer. 

 

Anyway, all in all, its a tone down from my multi trade suggestions and seems semi plausible.  I think I set realistic value in the SF deal as well as the Angels deal, although the Sox may have to give the Angels something else to go with Garland (But I'd be willing).

Just to add to this a bit, but Guillen has good speed and Gload has good speed (well solid speed). So Konerko is no longer in the lineup. This now means the middle portion of the lineup only has one slow player (Thomas) and the rest of the lineup only has one really slow player (Crede or Koskie). If I recall Aj has alright speed for a catcher.

 

Also, todays article by Guillen hinted at several position changes. One seemed to hint at Gload starting (I think he's more then capable) and he will be in this lineup. The other was Uribe and he'll be there. You also have AJ, Guillen and a new shortstop. All of the others were positions the Sox appear to be upgrading and then of course 3b is left open.

 

Guillen also mentioned having guys capable of handling the bat in the lower portion of the order. Well Gload in the 6 spot can handle the bat, Uribe can handle the bunt (ie bunt and hopefully with time control moving guys over in other ways as well). I always remember AJ as being a guy that could use all parts of the field (at least when he was with the Twinkies) and I think he dropped a few bunts against the Sox as well (going off memory). Sounds to me like more guys that can do what Ozzie does.

 

Defensively the team is also better. Guillen is a very good rf...and an awesome LF. His arm is fantastic. Pyrz is good behind the plate. Gload is good at 1b, and Uribe is good at ss or 2b (wherever he is playing). Crede is good defensively as is Koskie. We all know Rowand can field and well Lee gives all out effort and may not be great, but he isn't a liability.

[Rex Hudler]

Jason, Guillen is not the player the Sox want or need. Don't underestimate the impact a guy can have on a clubhouse.

 

1999 Pittsburgh

1999 Tampa Bay

2000 Tampa Bay

2001 Tampa Bay

2002 Arizona

2002 Cincinnati

2003 Cincinnati

2003 Oakland

2004 Anaheim

 

There is a reason he has played for six teams in six years!

[Gene Honda Civic]

Jason, Guillen is not the player the Sox want or need.  Don't underestimate the impact a guy can have on a clubhouse. 

 

1999 Pittsburgh

1999 Tampa Bay

2000 Tampa Bay

2001 Tampa Bay

2002 Arizona

2002 Cincinnati

2003 Cincinnati

2003 Oakland

2004 Anaheim

 

There is a reason he has played for six teams in six years!

/Repeating.

 

OPS

2004: 849

2003: 928

2002: 654

2001: 695

2000: 750

1999: 655

 

That's like Timo Perez suddenly becoming Carlos Lee.

[YASNY]

/Repeating.

 

OPS

2004: 849

2003: 928

2002: 654

2001: 695

2000: 750

1999: 655

 

That's like Timo Perez suddenly becoming Carlos Lee.

Good line.

[Rex Hudler]

Cheat, not sure what your point is with that last post, but numbers do not tell the whole story. Those that believe clubhouse chemistry doesn't matter, have never been in one. There are negative influences in every clubhouse..... how they are dealt with can make a huge difference oh how a team does over the course of a season.

[Hatchetman]

he'd be infinitely better than carl.

[beck72]

I just posted in the Sports Bar about Jose Guillen being suspended the rest of the year for his actions last night in the Oakland game.  I also mentioned that we should look into the situation and see if Anaheim wouldn't be willing to deal him.

 

What I thought about was the possibility of us acquring him for our OF.

The angels may be a team to deal with, as they should need a LFer. Esp. w/ Glaus probably not coming back at 3B, they'll need a big bat or two to replace both Guillen and Glaus. McPherson should be at 3B for them next year [or Robb Quinlan]. A guy like Carlos Lee might be a good option for the angels. There aren't many FA LFers out there the likes of Carlos Lee.

 

Instead of the sox acquiring Guillen, though, the sox should look into getting Chone Figgins, a proven bullpen guy [like Scot Shields] and a prospect for Carlos Lee. Figgins could play CF, and Rowand go to LF or RF.

[Hatchetman]

figgins makes $300,000. the angels are not trading him.

[beck72]

The Sox shouldn't look into getting Guillen. Some lesser tier team should take him provided the Angels pay a lot of his contract and get some prospect for him. His poor track record [numerous teams, bad attitude--no team fighting for the playoffs would just sit their 2nd best hitter w/o a huge reason, such as bieng a true "cancer"] doesn't sound like a guy the Sox need around at any price.

[beck72]

figgins makes $300,000. the angels are not trading him.

The Angels have plenty of young prospects [McPherson, Kotchman] and UTL guys [Riggs, Quinlan, who like Figgins played like 5 spots this yr, particularly 3b, where he hit .342 before going down for the yr], along with guys signed for 2005 and beyond [Erstad, Salmon, Anderson, Vlad, Kennedy and Guillen] that could make Figgins trade bait. Salary isn't an issue in Ana.

 

They'll need a big bat to offset the loss of Glaus and Guillen, more than a table setter like Figgins. It depends on whether Ana. signs Eckstein to be their leadoff hitter. Because Figgins looks to be the odd man out, w/o a position for '05. Why not get a big bat, as those are scarce in free agency

[witesoxfan]

Jason, Guillen is not the player the Sox want or need.  Don't underestimate the impact a guy can have on a clubhouse. 

 

1999 Pittsburgh

1999 Tampa Bay

2000 Tampa Bay

2001 Tampa Bay

2002 Arizona

2002 Cincinnati

2003 Cincinnati

2003 Oakland

2004 Anaheim

 

There is a reason he has played for six teams in six years!

Just to point it out...

 

He went from Cincinatti to Oakland to help bolster the A's lineup. And he wasn't resigned by Oakland due to the fact that he would want money in FA, and the A's couldn't afford him...so the Angels took a risk on him.

 

He bounced around before because he had talent, but never put it all together.

 

 

He may be an asshole...but he is a hell of a player, and he busts ass all the time, is clutch as hell, and is a decent defensive OFer with a cannon for an arm.

 

Put it this way...I'd rather see Guillen out in RF next year over Carl Everett.

 

Winning is pretty much a cure-all, and when you are winning, there are few problems within the clubhouse. When you don't win is usually when you have problems.

[Hatchetman]

i don't know what this means but he made the jump from A ball to the majors at age 21.

[witesoxfan]

i don't know what this means but he made the jump from A ball to the majors at age 21.

It means he was rushed to the majors and is probably one of the reasons he struggled in his first several years in the majors.

[Rex Hudler]

Just to point it out...

 

He went from Cincinatti to Oakland to help bolster the A's lineup.  And he wasn't resigned by Oakland due to the fact that he would want money in FA, and the A's couldn't afford him...so the Angels took a risk on him.

 

He bounced around before because he had talent, but never put it all together.

 

 

He may be an asshole...but he is a hell of a player, and he busts ass all the time, is clutch as hell, and is a decent defensive OFer with a cannon for an arm.

 

Put it this way...I'd rather see Guillen out in RF next year over Carl Everett. 

 

Winning is pretty much a cure-all, and when you are winning, there are few problems within the clubhouse.  When you don't win is usually when you have problems.

I'll vote on neitehr Guillen nor Everett, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

 

I don't know how to explain it to you other than the fact that if you have never been in a clubhouse or been part of a team, you can't understand it. Good players who are negative influences can and often do have a negative impact on their own teams, DESPITE their own success on the field.

 

It is hard to grasp because it is not quantifiable and many things that happen in a clubhouse are never known by fans. The concept is legit whether it is easy for fans to grasp or not.

[witesoxfan]

I'll vote on neitehr Guillen nor Everett, but that doesn't seem to be an option. 

 

I don't know how to explain it to you other than the fact that if you have never been in a clubhouse or been part of a team, you can't understand it.  Good players who are negative influences can and often do have a negative impact on their own teams, DESPITE their own success on the field. 

 

It is hard to grasp because it is not quantifiable and many things that happen in a clubhouse are never known by fans.  The concept is legit whether it is easy for fans to grasp or not.

I can only say that I do not know...I can't understand how one asshole can ruin it for 24 others in a clubhouse...but then again, I have never been in a clubhouse before.

 

All I know is that Guillen has helped the Angels win this year, even if he has been a dickhead about it, and due to his last outburst, and the Angels publicly stating that he will be traded, his value will be way down, and he could be had very cheaply.

 

I guess we will just agree to disagree.

[Rex Hudler]

I can only say that I do not know...I can't understand how one asshole can ruin it for 24 others in a clubhouse...but then again, I have never been in a clubhouse before.

 

All I know is that Guillen has helped the Angels win this year, even if he has been a dickhead about it, and due to his last outburst, and the Angels publicly stating that he will be traded, his value will be way down, and he could be had very cheaply.

 

I guess we will just agree to disagree. 

It is not about being an asshole. It is about buying into the team concept. If one guy is treated differently, others resent it. They feel they aren't being treated fairly, so their morale changes.

 

If a guy misses team meetings or is constantly late, he is showing that he has no respect for the team. If a player or players don't commit to that team concept, then others will follow. The morale of the existing players will decrease.

 

There are a million possible scenarios here and I don't know specifics about Guillen. I DO know that a team 1 game out of first place, fighting for a playoff berth WOULD NOT suspend one of their best players if they didn't think he was hurting the team. No front office staff is that stupid. Sometimes you put up with a few things here and there, but then you have to take a stand. You have to rely on players to do the right things. Sometimes you give them an inch or two, hoping they don't take a mile.

 

Again, this isn't measurable, but it does exist. Things like this are also rarely discussed in the media, because it is best to try and keep things in house.

[Chisoxfn]

I want to add something about the Guillen incident. All the talk around Orange County (on the radio and what not) are that this was pretty much a bulls*** move.

 

The Angels (aka Scioscia) originally hinted that something drastic happened, not just the helmet throw and throwing his glove. Their were even some reports that Guillen threw a punch at Sciosc (utter bs by the way). Now the tone is starting to change and some stuff has been leaked (or reportedly leaked) that the incident was pretty much what all the fans could see.

 

The other two incidents was in the Toronto series early in the year he called his pitchers out for not protecting the hitters (mainly him). And you know what, I remember the angles announcers at the time saying someone should step up and protect Guillen. Of course now they are toing that company line saying the opposite. I'll tell you, Guillen flipping carried the Angels in May when damn near everyone was down (injured). He then got beaned repeatedly in the hand/wrist area. I think he was hit like 4 times in a week period or something and like three times ni the series. He was playing hurt and the pitchers continued to do nothing.

 

I seem to remember many Sox fans and some analysts that will tell you this season was lost when the Sox didn't retaliate for the Torri Hunter incident.

 

The only other incident Guillen had (and to me this is the severe one in a sense) is that he told the media he wasn't at a players meeting called by Darin Erstad. He did in fact attend it, but aluded to the point that the meeting was terrible.

 

Vladdy seemed pissed that Guillen is gone though, I'll tell you that much and Erstad and Percy are about the only two on the team talking about it and saying it was a good decision (they are guys that follow that company line). However, Garret Anderson from his tone of voice appears perplexed, so did Molina and I'm sure there are others. Hell, the Angels weren't even freaking told (I'm referring to the players) of the incident. They had to find out through the grapevine. Ya, really gutsy their Scioscia.

 

Sorry, I've watched Guillen all year long. Like I say, I only know the stuff that is talked about on the radio and on tv and what you can tell, but I do know one thing. Guillen played 110% every freaking game. The guy played hurt, the guy had tons of clutch hits (he was having a bad September) and the guy loves playing baseball.

 

Was it stupid for him to get pissed, YA it was, but for christ sake the guy was just lpaying his ass off and wanted to stay in the game. Hell, the only reason I can see him being pinch ran for is because someone thought he was injured (he was hit in the ankle region) but if he said no, you leave him out there.

 

Oh ya, this is the same Jose Guillen that played with a broken wrist (wasn't that what he had) during the playoffs for the A's.

 

Ya, I'll take him on the Sox.

[witesoxfan]

It is not about being an asshole.  It is about buying into the team concept.  If one guy is treated differently, others resent it.  They feel they aren't being treated fairly, so their morale changes. 

 

If a guy misses team meetings or is constantly late, he is showing that he has no respect for the team.  If a player or players don't commit to that team concept, then others will follow.  The morale of the existing players will decrease.

 

There are a million possible scenarios here and I don't know specifics about Guillen.  I DO know that a team 1 game out of first place, fighting for a playoff berth WOULD NOT suspend one of their best players if they didn't think he was hurting the team.  No front office staff is that stupid.  Sometimes you put up with a few things here and there, but then you have to take a stand.  You have to rely on players to do the right things.  Sometimes you give them an inch or two, hoping they don't take a mile.

 

Again, this isn't measurable, but it does exist.  Things like this are also rarely discussed in the media, because it is best to try and keep things in house.

I do see where that would hurt the team...I do understand that concept completely.

 

Maybe I have misunderstood the whole asshole thing.

 

Still...if he comes cheaply, it is a medium-risk, very high-reward type of situation...if he comes here and doesn't gel, we trade him at the deadline for a decent package of players. If he does come here and fit right in, and he shapes up, he could have a monster year.

[Chisoxfn]

I should add, I think if the players accepted Everett and from all intentions they have, then I see no reason why they wouldn't accept Jose Guillen.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you play your ass of once your on the field then you can be a total loner in the clubhouse and wherever else. You think everyone likes Sheffield...hell no, but the guy does his thing from the first pitch to the final pitch and thats what matters.

 

Now if a guy is truly going in the clubhouse, talking s*** on players and all that crap, well thats another story. But I've never seen Guillen quoted anywhere knocking a player (at least not with him in Anaheim), other then the one time where he said he didn't attend the player meeting.

 

Last I looked Jose has said plenty of stupid s*** to the media and he ain't a clubhouse cancer.

 

I also think he'd enjoy playing with Ozzie. Ozzie appreciates anyone that plays the game hard and their is absolutely no denying that Jose Guillen plays the game hard.

[Rex Hudler]

Jason, there has to be something else. There is no way a team would hurt itself if that was all. You mention this incident and two others in Toronto. How many incidents were there that never leaked out? You, nor I will never know.

 

The Angels aren't stupid. They aren't going to take this kind of stand for a bulls*** move. Sometimes things go on behind the scenes that never get out, trust me I know. Rather than try and dig into the details of this one incident, look at the bigger picture. Why would the Angels want to jeopardize their playoff chances? There are ways to discipline a player and not hurt the team. There is a reason none of these were chosen. There is a reason why he keeps hopping from team to team.

 

Look at the big picture.

[Chisoxfn]

Well I have my one little theory, but I didn't wnat to get into it cause its based soley on my mind.

 

I think Scioscia had his ego hurt and that one thing you don't want to do is piss him off. He's one of those guys that likes getting talked about and he was definately shown up when Gullen pulled his tantrum.

 

Like you say, I figured something else had to happen but today on the morning radio some of the best reporters out here were on and they said stuff is starting to die down and come clean and this is the issue.

 

As far as Guillen goes, he's not one to keep incidents quiet. He's been quoted as saying if I disagree with something I'm going to say it.

 

And with him getting shipped all over, he was rushed to the majors and never panned out. Once he did he was in Cincy and was a FA and they were out of contention. It made sense to deal him, so he went to Oakland played through a broken wrist and the A's weren't going to give him money.

 

Ended up signing a 2 yr 6 mill deal with an option for 2006.

[Rex Hudler]

I should add, I think if the players accepted Everett and from all intentions they have, then I see no reason why they wouldn't accept Jose Guillen. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you play your ass of once your on the field then you can be a total loner in the clubhouse and wherever else. You think everyone likes Sheffield...hell no, but the guy does his thing from the first pitch to the final pitch and thats what matters.

 

Now if a guy is truly going in the clubhouse, talking s*** on players and all that crap, well thats another story.  But I've never seen Guillen quoted anywhere knocking a player (at least not with him in Anaheim), other then the one time where he said he didn't attend the player meeting. 

 

Last I looked Jose has said plenty of stupid s*** to the media and he ain't a clubhouse cancer. 

 

I also think he'd enjoy playing with Ozzie.  Ozzie appreciates anyone that plays the game hard and their is absolutely no denying that Jose Guillen plays the game hard.

Jason, time to get your head out of the sand........ A LOT of stuff happens within a team that never gets reported. Some good, some bad, some just meaningless.

 

You have to understand that there is often more to a story than gets printed in the papers.

[witesoxfan]

There is a reason why he keeps hopping from team to team.

I understand those other points, but as I mentioned before, he has hopped around from team to team for other reasons, though I can't say attitude hasn't been a factor.

 

From about 96 or 98 to 2002, he hopped around because he stunk. In 2003, he put it all together and had a very good 1st half of the year with Cincinatti, and was dealt to Oakland around the trade deadline. Oakland didn't resign him because they did not have the money to make such a move. Anaheim gambled and picked him up, and he's put up very good numbers for them.

 

He will be moved this upcoming offseason due to attitude alone, in all likelyhood...and I would also guess that that would be the first time he is moved for that sole reason.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm not doubtin that their isn't more to this Rex, but I am really doubting the logistics of it all. I'm sorry, but I've been an Anaheim fan my whole life, I've watched Scioscia.

 

I get this angst out of the quotes Scioscia has made and how absolutely "phony" they are. but your right, its very very odd for them to do something like this around this time of year. Obviously at least a few people didn't like him.