No offense, but Minn. never seems to have guys put up "monster numbers" and still win. They have a solid team. The Sox don't have that right now and if it means trading Lee to accomplish that, I'm all for it.

As am I.

I would rather see the Sox trade Lee for a MLB player that can play right now

Madritsch can play. He'd be a perfect lefty arm to add to our rotation. Unless he's injured or something and I'm not aware of it.

Just to go back to your point, one game sticks out in my mind. It was the April game [vs KC?] where 3, 4 guys ran onto the field. Lee was laughing so hard, at the second to last guy whose sweatpants came down after getting tackled by security. He was having a ball, laughing.

 

What a true "winner" and serious baseball guy who you'd want to build a team around would have done is been pissed that the guy was on the field. Most people were booing the guy, yelling at him. Lee didn't have to tackle the guy. Just be pissed at him, not laugh it up like a clown and encourage more fools to come on the field.

Imagine this scary scenario, the Cubs laughed at the Bartman incident. Got loose, Gonzo doesn't bobble the easy ground ball etc. etc.

Just because he found something funny that you didn't is reason enough for you to want to trade him?  If I was in his shoes I would have probably laughed too.  He is an easygoing guy who laughs a lot.  I don't see any correlation between that and a need to trade him.  None at all.

IMO, it shows a lack of seriousness that can hurt a team. For his talent and cash he's getting, I want a team captain type of player. This wasn't the 1st inning. It was in the 6th, 7th inning of a close game and the 3rd guy who ran onto the field.

IMO, it shows a lack of seriousness that can hurt a team. For his talent and cash he's getting, I want a team captain type of player. This wasn't the 1st inning. It was in the 6th, 7th inning of a close game and the 3rd guy who ran onto the field.

I'll tell ya something right now.

 

Three guys run onto the field...by the third time, I'm laughing too. Those goofs just end up getting nailed anyway. Why let it bug you? Stay loose, play the game.

I'll tell ya something right now. 

 

Three guys run onto the field...by the third time, I'm laughing too.  Those goofs just end up getting nailed anyway.  Why let it bug you?  Stay loose, play the game.

Exactly. Life is too stupid to take so seriously all the time. It's just a game.

I'm thinking more of the swing for the fences mentality that I kept seeing from him. I remember one game - vs. Detroit. When we've a guy on third base and two outs, I'd like to see someone swing for contact and get the guy on base home, rather than swing for the fences and pop out.

Oh, c'mon.  Sorry he's not serious enough for your tastes.  Carlos has been a solid citizen and a good, almost great, player, and he's worked hard at his fielding.  That's all I know.  You claim to have some special knowledge of his soul b/c he laughed when someone got pantsed.  Are you kidding me with this?

 

One more thing -- you don't trade a guy just b/c his value's high.  Only if it's artificially high -- I don't think that's the case with Carlos at all.

 

Btw, Addison, as ss said, team option.

I don't care if he's a solid citizen. I want winners. IMO, this incident shows something about his committment to winning. [Not just this one isolated incident but other incidents and reports over the years: Frank leading Carlos to workouts during ST this past year making him work out; Lee's weight gain [in 2002, 2003] when he dropped to single digit steals; Lee falling asleep on the bases a lot getting picked off; KW's and Ozzie's comments about Lee not being a "complete ballplayer" at the end of 2004.] Some thing is missing.

 

I don't claim to have any special insight. I go to some games, I read the papers a lot, follow the Sox closely. Something hasn't been right with all the talent the sox have had over the last 4 yrs. Lee has tremendous talent. No doubt. But talent alone has gotten the Sox zilch these last few yrs.

 

As far as trading a guy--If it improves the ballclub, now and for the future, you do it.

I'm thinking more of the swing for the fences mentality that I kept seeing from him. I remember one game - vs. Detroit. When we've a guy on third base and two outs, I'd like to see someone swing for contact and get the guy on base home, rather than swing for the fences and pop out.

I don't get where this 'Carlos swings for the fences' thing comes from. It's not that easy to control where you hit the ball -- some do it better than others but even then it's hit-or-miss (giggle). How exactly do you know that he was trying to hit a hr in that particular swing? And if he's just up there swinging for the fences, why are his strikeout and walk numbers so good?

Joel Pineiro and Randy Wynn would make some sense. The question is whether Pineiro is healthy and I'd rather make the offer around Paul Konerko.

 

Also Seattle is supposedly one of the front-runners for Pavano. Carlos Lee is so underrated and if Kenny doesn't get full value for him (which in my mind is a hell of a lot) then I'll be worried.

 

He's way more capable of filling for Maggs then Konerko or Thomas or anyone else on this offense.

I'm thinking more of the swing for the fences mentality that I kept seeing from him. I remember one game - vs. Detroit. When we've a guy on third base and two outs, I'd like to see someone swing for contact and get the guy on base home, rather than swing for the fences and pop out.

That too. It all factors into the equation

Madritsch can play.  He'd be a perfect lefty arm to add to our rotation.  Unless he's injured or something and I'm not aware of it.

He's healthy from what I have read. I would be elated to see him pitch for the Sox.

Just to go back to your point, one game sticks out in my mind. It was the April game [vs KC?] where 3, 4 guys ran onto the field. Lee was laughing so hard, at the second to last guy whose sweatpants came down after getting tackled by security. He was having a ball, laughing.

 

What a true "winner" and serious baseball guy who you'd want to build a team around would have done is been pissed that the guy was on the field. Most people were booing the guy, yelling at him. Lee didn't have to tackle the guy. Just be pissed at him, not laugh it up like a clown and encourage more fools to come on the field.

I'm sorry.. but I laughed to tears when that happened also.

I know it became chic to criticize CLee last year but I still like the guy. This isn't rocket science or brain surgery... it's baseball. It's supposed to be fun.

I'll tell ya something right now. 

 

Three guys run onto the field...by the third time, I'm laughing too.  Those goofs just end up getting nailed anyway.  Why let it bug you?  Stay loose, play the game.

I'm not too old school that I don't know how to laugh a little on the field. But my point is, I don't know if Lee is the type of player to build a team around. His talent says, yes. But his head.....

 

FWIW--Magglio was pissed. Rowand wasn't laughing either.

I don't care if he's a solid citizen. I want winners. IMO, this incident shows something about his committment to winning. [Not just this one isolated incident but other incidents and reports over the years: Frank leading Carlos to workouts during ST this past year making him work out; Lee's weight gain [in 2002, 2003] when he dropped to single digit steals; Lee falling asleep on the bases a lot getting picked off; KW's and Ozzie's comments about Lee not being a "complete ballplayer" at the end of 2004.] Some thing is missing.

 

I don't claim to have any special insight. I go to some games, I read the papers a lot, follow the Sox closely. Something hasn't been right with all the talent the sox have had over the last 4 yrs. Lee has tremendous talent. No doubt. But talent alone has gotten the Sox zilch these last few yrs.

 

As far as trading a guy--If it improves the ballclub, now and for the future, you do it.

You're looking for Carlos to be Pete Rose or Roger Clemens. Well, that's not going to happen. I couldn't care less. I don't recall the rule that all baseball players must have one personality.

 

As for the trades, yeah, obviously. If you get a great deal, fine. But 'Lee's value is high' is not a reason to trade him. It's high b/c he's been enormously, consistently productive, and he's at the age when players peak, on average. For $8 mil per for 2 years, that's definitely a reason to KEEP Carlos.

I'm not too old school that I don't know how to laugh a little on the field. But my point is, I don't know if Lee is the type of player to build a team around. His talent says, yes. But his head.....

 

FWIW--Magglio was pissed. Rowand wasn't laughing either.

Know what thought beck...thinking along those lines, is Greg Maddux a guy to build a team around?

 

He is a fantastic baseball player, one of the best at his position, but he has ZERO leadership potential. When he came to the Flubs, all the reporters kept asking if he was going to take Prior and Wood under his wing. His response: I'm not really that type of guy, I'm actually hoping to learn a little from them.

 

So, although he is a great ball player, he isn't necessarily a leader on or off the field. (Before you guys dog me, I know he is a first ballot hall of famer, I just think this was a good example)

 

The law says no-no. But her eyes say yes-yes.

Hell I'm one of those fans that likes to see players laughing and having fun. I think a more relaxed player is a better one and a fun one to watch. Thats what I always remember about the 2000 season.

 

The players were always smiling, laughing, and having fun.

You're looking for Carlos to be Pete Rose or Roger Clemens.  Well, that's not going to happen.  I couldn't care less.  I don't recall the rule that all baseball players must have one personality.

 

As for the trades, yeah, obviously.  If you get a great deal, fine.  But 'Lee's value is high' is not a reason to trade him.  It's high b/c he's been enormously, consistently productive, and he's at the age when players peak, on average.  For $8 mil per for 2 years, that's definitely a reason to KEEP Carlos.

I've not said that because Lee's value is high as the only reason the sox should trade him.

 

Personality is fine. But I'd rather have winners

Rowand wasn't laughing either.

You're a bit mistaken on this.. Aaron thought it was hysterical. It's a story he tells often. If you attend Sox Fest.. ask him about the "hairy butt".

I've not said that because Lee's value is high as the only reason the sox should trade him.

 

Personality is fine. But I'd rather have winners

That part of the post wasn't really directed at you, just that sort of reasoning.

 

I asked you before about winners, I'll ask again: What is a "winner"? Not examples, I mean a 1-sentence definition so I'll know what you're talking about. Last time I think it was whittled down to 'Smallball style players who are clutch'. Is that right?

You're a bit mistaken on this.. Aaron thought it was hysterical. It's a story he tells often. If you attend Sox Fest.. ask him about the "hairy butt". 

I was by Carlos on the left field line. If I recall, aaron had a better view [and he had his glove over his face at least]

I asked you before about winners, I'll ask again:  What is a "winner"?  Not examples, I mean a 1-sentence definition so I'll know what you're talking about.  Last time I think it was whittled down to 'Smallball style players who are clutch'.  Is that right?

No it wasn't. Go back and look it up if you want.

No it wasn't. Go back and look it up if you want.

Well, what is it then?

 

Edit: Looked it up, and you refused to define it then. (Others defined it as small ball + clutch after that.) Sorry, but if your argument rests on words that don't have a meaning, I don't know why I should take it seriously.

I was by Carlos on the left field line. If I recall, aaron had a better view [and he had his glove over his face at least]

When he tells the story he makes refrence to almost being blinded. It's hysterical.