Question about 1919.

[Kid Gleason]

O.K., so I'm getting dressed this morning, and I know I have to go full all out Sox gear today. So I grab one of my jersey's, and it is the 1919 one I grab. Before I put it on, I stop and think to myself "is it wise to wear this one", but put it on anyways as it is my favorite.

 

I started to think about it then, aside from the slight lack of titles for our team, there is no doubt that the blackest period of the team was the 1919 series. The team itself, up until then, was a team to be proud of. But then that happened. Why then is there so much merchandise with it? Why do so many of us still honor that team?

 

My theory is that it is a great way for Sox fans to show that they do NOT buy into curses and such. I just got an email from a Sox fan mentioning the "curse" we have been through, and I said how we didn't have a "curse". My boss asked what about the 1919 series, and I said there was no curse following that and most fans don't think of us having a curse. I then said would we wear these jersey's if we really felt it caused a "curse". He agreed then, and said he also had never heard of a "Sox Curse".

 

But anyhoo, why do you think we still seem to enjoy the 1919 team, and still have merchandise available on that team? Shouldn't it really be a "black eye" to a degree, and a period that we ignore?

 

Or should it be something to respect for the fact that they were a great team, and that scandal actually cleaned up all of sports...to a degree.

[Antonio Osuna]

They made the World Series. Not many other Sox teams can say that.

[Kid Gleason]

They made the World Series. Not many other Sox teams can say that.

 

I know that...but they didn't really "respect" the game or the series. It has to be more than just that, I would think.

[The Critic]

Dips*** Woody Paige was trying to turn the Black Sox scandal into a curse ( and therefore the reason the Sox won't win ) on ESPN yesterday.

That curse bulls*** is for the Cubs, and for their American League counterpart the Red Cubs. You don't see Sox fans making black socks into spaghetti, or blowing them up, or feeding them to a goat, or whatever. The whole curse thing is a joke.

 

Wear what you like - IMO if it says Sox on it ( and doesn't say RED in front of it or SUCK behind it ) then it's supporting the team.

 

Oh, and to try to answer your question - I think people as a rule tend to blame Comiskey's miserly ways for the Black Sox thing more than they blame the players themselves. Also, almost none of us know anyone who was alive when it actually happened, so we're a little detached from the situation. If this year's team got to the Series and threw it, THEN you'd see some backlash!!!

Edited October 4, 2005 by The Critic

[farmteam]

Yes, the reason was more Comiskey than anything.

 

However, for the reason we aren't "ashamed" or what not of that tean, and still wear 1919 jerseys, that's a little tricky. Perhaps, as Critic said, it's because we're a little detached because it was so long ago.

 

My theory however, is that we are also intrigued by the whole mystique of it...did Shoeless Joe really throw it? That's the biggest part of it, nowadays. If you go up to a casual White Sox fan (not bandwagon, just not as diehard as some folks here), there is a good chance that of all the Black Sox, they can only name Shoeless Joe.

 

So, bottom line: we still wear 1919 jerseys and the like because A) it was a long time ago and B)we are more intrigued by it than anything else in Sox history.

 

Anyway, that's just my theory. Who knows.

[Kid Gleason]

Isn't it kind of odd though that it is easier to find 1919 gear than it is to find 1917 gear?

 

Almost more of a "celebrate the failure and not the success" thing going on.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Kid Gleason

[farmteam]

That is true.

 

However, going with the "Any publicity is good publicity" idea, FAR more people have heard about 1919 than 1917. 1917 wouldn't sell nearly as much.

[Kid Gleason]

Oh, and to try to answer your question - I think people as a rule tend to blame Comiskey's miserly ways for the Black Sox thing more than they blame the players themselves.

 

Not so sure about that. Most people don't really know (and even more didn't know until 8 Men Out was released in theaters...not that many non-fans read the book) the specifics of the Series throwing, they just know the Sox did. If fans knew what a HUGE prick Comiskey was, I don't think as many would have been upset over the stadium name change.

 

***place should be renamed "Thomas Field" if you ask me***

[farmteam]

As far as changing the name goes--I was a lot more upset that the name was becoming soemthing corporate, than I was at the name Comiskey changing.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I'm not even sure what would categorically differentiate a 1919 jersey from a 1917 jersey. I know the red/white/blue themed jerseys in 1917 were only worn in the WS, and that basic "S-o-x" logoed jeresey was used all the way until the switch to the "bat and ball" emblem in 1932.

 

I know a few years ago a line of "Black Sox 1919" leather jackets and stuff came out but that was a bunch of marketing bulls***.

 

For good or bad, 1919 is a part of baseball history, like the color barrier was, like Ty Cobb sharpening his spikes was, like the boozing and womanizing of several baseball legends was. Like steroids are now.

 

If I had a way-back machine I'd trade the scandal for a WS championship in a heartbeat, so I can't exactly say I'm proud of that page in team history. But I embrace it as part of the whole history, and I won't lose any piece of mind knowing you're decked out in Black Sox attire and somehow jinxing the team.

 

Curses are for losers. Win. Or Die Trying, right?

[Kid Gleason]

I almost went into a whole thing about the fact that I want a 1917 WS jersey and such, and that you can't get any of them now unless you want to pay the bog money, but I can still find "old styled jersey's" that say "1919" on them. That is the thing, the old style merch mentions only two dates, 1901 and/or 1919. You rarely see any of them mentioning the years they won the series.

 

I have just always found it a little odd, always wanted to ask, and found today to be an ideal day. Helping to pass time until something happens.

[DonkeyKongerko]

Shoeless Joe's WS stats that year were pretty damn respectable. It's a dark time in White Sox history, but I embrace this team and all its faults. Wear it proud.

[LVSoxFan]

Shoeless Joe would be on the outfield wall were it not for that scandal.

 

I think the jerseys are available not so much to honor that debacle but because aesthetically they're very unique (I have one of them) and sweeeet uniform shirts.

 

If you want a great read, read Eight Men Out and you'll learn all about the Black Sox.

[FlaSoxxJim]

If you want a great read, read Eight Men Out and you'll learn all about the  Black Sox.

 

Based on his handle, I'd say Kid already knows a thing or two about them. But yeah, great film and an even better book.

[Kid Gleason]

I do know about them. I'm just curious as to why we all seem to celebrate that year, or why the "company" chooses to have us celebrate that team over, say, 1917 or 1906. Just a different question in the mix.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Everybody loves an epic tragedy I guess. They were supposedly the best team most anybody at the time ever saw play, including the WS championship team of two years earlier. They were hands-down favorites to beat the Reds, based in large part on the anticipated stellar pitching performance of 29 game winner Ciccote.

 

The facts that the entire success of the Gandil's and the other dirty player's plan to throw the series would come down to getting Ciccote on board (he went 1-2 in the WS of ciourse), and that Ciccote only did agree after Comiskey refused him a promised 30-win season-end bonus are the stuff of Epic Greek Tragedy. Comiskey's miserly ways costiong him teh WS and the franchise its good name, and the ensuing banning of the involved players by Judge Landis – essentially tarnishing them for all eternity – that is powerful stuff.

[SoIL]

I think the whole "Black Sox" scandal is a bit of a cult thing. There is a certain "bad boy" stigma and attitude attached to it. National Lampoon used to advertise and sell Black Sox shirts in their magazine. Shoeless Joe has become a mythical figure. Eight Men Out certainly added to this. As someone else has pointed out, people tend to be fascinated with scandal. It is somewhat like the intrigue with gangsters. It's titillating and makes for good reading and viewing. The 1919 jersey's are a way to cash in on this fascination.

[The Critic]

"29 is not 30, Eddie. You'll get only the money you're owed...."

[SoIL]

Everybody loves an epic tragedy I guess.  They were supposedly the best team most anybody at the time ever saw play, including the WS championship team of two years earlier.  They were hands-down favorites to beat the Reds, based in large part on the anticipated stellar pitching performance of 29 game winner Ciccote.

 

The facts that the entire success of the Gandil's and the other dirty player's plan to throw the series would come down to getting Ciccote on board (he went 1-2 in the WS of ciourse), and that Ciccote only did agree after Comiskey refused him a promised 30-win season-end bonus are the stuff of Epic Greek Tragedy.  Comiskey's miserly ways costiong him teh WS and the franchise its good name, and the ensuing banning of the involved players by Judge Landis – essentially tarnishing them for all eternity – that is powerful stuff.

 

Excellent post BTW.

[The Ginger Kid]

There are many great books on the history of baseball and some bad ones as well. But if you check it out you'll see that players on the 1919 White Sox got busted while many other players on other teams did not. In fact, there was a great article some years ago on the 1906 Cubs who lost the world series to the White Sox. Supposedly it was fixed. Cheating and gambling were rampant back then but people single out the Sox because they became the whipping child for the league, the unfortunate example. I'm not excusing in any way what they did. It was scandalous. But keep in mind that many White Sox players on that team -- considered by some to be the greatest team of all time -- did not throw the series. It was a handful of players who regretted it until the day they died.

 

I say take pride in that team because they were a great team whose efforts were undermined by a greedy owner and a handful of malcontents who coerced and threatened other players into submission.

 

[Kid Gleason]

I believe it was the 1918 Series that the Cubs threw, to the Bo Sox.

[The Ginger Kid]

I believe it was the 1918 Series that the Cubs threw, to the Bo Sox.

you know what, you're right. my bad.

 

edit: Here's a great book on the subject:

 

The Fix Is In (A History of Baseball Gambling and Game Fixing Scandals) by Daniel Ginsburg (317 pages, hardbound, $29.95). This 1995 text looks at attempts and actual fixes of baseball games from the 19th Century into the Pete Rose era. It is perhaps the most fascinating overall history book on the subject, offering details such as Boston being a standout city for gamblers to "take over" both the Braves and Red Sox ballparks to openly accept bets. In one game, the gamblers rushed onto the field to try to force the game to be rained out so all bets would be off. They failed when the rain stopped. This was 1917 baseball. It got worse when players like Hal Chase of the Giants (and later playing for other teams) made open offers to help fix games even before the 1919 scandal with the never-proved guilty but often-mentioned gambler Arnold Rothstein.

 

There were minor league fixes and scandals and finger-pointing at Tris Speaker and even the great Hall of Famer Ty Cobb, along with Honus Wagner. Questions are introduced‹was there a coverup after the big 1919 scandal to preserve the integrity of the game once and for all?

Edited October 4, 2005 by The Ginger Kid

[FlaSoxxJim]

I believe it was the 1918 Series that the Cubs threw, to the Bo Sox.

Allegedly threw to the BoSox. :rolly

[SHAFTR]

It was the end of an era. Before 1919, the White Sox were one of the most successful franchises. Since the scandal...well, everyone here knows about the trouble. Also, the 1919 team is the most famous team in White Sox history.

 

I mean, lets face it: None of us believe in the curse, and that is realist thinking. Realist thinking also tells you that this is one of the sorriest franchises in sports. I still love them, but that is the truth. So, I think there is something to say when the most famous team is infamous.

[CanOfCorn]

I think SoIL had it right. You don't see movies made about the musical paid for by selling Babe Ruth. You don't read books about goats not being let into a stadium.

 

Because the Babe had an excellent career...there's a curse. Because a goat (A GOAT!!!) is denied access...there's a curse.

 

People feel bad for the 1919 Black Sox. There's empathy. They did it to themselves. And we, as human beings, want to feel bad for people like Joe Jackson who didn't get to finish his dream (see: Field of Dreams). The other "curses" were someone else's stupidity or some outside reason.

 

So, I say embrace the 1919 White Sox. That is OUR teams history. That being said, let's go out there and kick some Red Sox/Yankee/Angel/NL team ass and win one for White Sox players and fans since 1901!!!

 

SOX PRIDE!!!