And he would have...if we would have dealt two pitchers. Or next year, when one or two of Floyd/Contreras/Garland are gone.

 

Plus, and I don't remember who said this before...we don't have a Doug Mirabelli to catch it. That might be part of the trouble.

Because Haeger has terrible control problems.

 

Atleast Floyd doesnt walk AAA batters.

 

Its pretty simple, if haeger wants to pitch at the MLB level he cant be walking so many batters.

With Floyd, I am also figuring in his 111 innings with Philadelphia and his career 5.24 ERA in AAA. Saving a couple million on Dye would have been big considering KW is paying the entire bullpen $3.6 million this year. Every dollar saved this year could be used next season. Sandwich picks don't excite me.

 

His poor starts when he was with Philadelphia came when he was 22 and 23....As if a pitcher never struggled at that age. Look at John Danks last 7 starts or so. His ERA during that span is every bit as poor as Floyd's was in a comparable number of innings with Philadelphia, at darn near the same age during 05' and 06'. I am not claiming that Floyd will turn into a great pitcher, in fact, I don't care much for him either. But it would be irresponsible, with where we are as a team ths year, to not give him the opportunity to show us what he is capable of. There simply is no other alternative. If we had Justin Verlander in AAA being blocked by Floyd, I would be in full agreement with you. But we don't.

 

About 6 weeks ago, I remember you being excited about Floyd's progress in Charlotte like several other posters. You've completely changed your mind after two starts? You don't find that shortsighted and impatient?

Because Haeger has terrible control problems.

 

Atleast Floyd doesnt walk AAA batters.

 

Its pretty simple, if haeger wants to pitch at the MLB level he cant be walking so many batters.

And he gets replaced on the roster with MacDougal who is averaging a walk an inning this season. Please.

Fine. How come Haeger isn't getting a shot? He has only about 30 innings in his career. If everyone who has been as bad as Floyd has been for as long as Floyd has been get the same opportunities, I would have no problem. Do you really think he would get this chance if KW had acquired him for some minor league garbage?

 

Who Floyd was traded for has nothing to do with this at all. I think 90% of Soxtalk realizes the true value in that trade was Gio. The point is we need to see what Floyd does right now so we can either cut him loose or plan on him being part of our future. There is no better time than now.

And he gets replaced on the roster with MacDougal who is averaging a walk an inning this season. Please.

 

Seriously, are you related to Haeger or something? This is getting ridiculous. MacDougal has done things in his major league career that Charlie has NEVER come close to doing.

It's pretty similar to the crap you are arguing right now, which was the entire purpose of his post.

 

Thank you.

His poor starts when he was with Philadelphia came when he was 22 and 23....As if a pitcher never struggled at that age. Look at John Danks last 7 starts or so. His ERA during that span is every bit as poor as Floyd's was in a comparable number of innings with Philadelphia, at darn near the same age during 05' and 06'. I am not claiming that Floyd will turn into a great pitcher, in fact, I don't care much for him either. But it would be irresponsible, with where we are as a team ths year, to not give him the opportunity to show us what he is capable of. There simply is no other alternative. If we had Justin Verlander in AAA being blocked by Floyd, I would be in full agreement with you. But we don't.

 

About 6 weeks ago, I remember you being excited about Floyd's progress in Charlotte like several other posters. You've completely changed your mind after two starts? You don't find that shortsighted and impatient?

I have never been excited about Gavin Floyd. I did like the trade because I was of the opinion Garcia would be bad and the money saved would be nice and I am a huge Gio fan. I hoped Floyd would be as good as many thought 3 years ago, but was resigned to the bust most now think he really is. Floyd's ERA isn't getting better from when he was 22 or 23, its going higher. If you want to compare Danks to that, you're doing Jon a big disservice.

Macdougal is a rp.

 

Haeger is a sp.

 

Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster.

 

Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes.

Seriously, are you related to Haeger or something? This is getting ridiculous. MacDougal has done things in his major league career that Charlie has NEVER come close to doing.

I'm responding to the post that Haegar's control problems are why he went back to Charlotte. He's being replaced with a guy who can't throw a strike to save his life this year. Its also not like Floyd is pinpoint.

Macdougal is a rp.

 

Haeger is a sp.

 

Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster.

 

Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes.

Haeger has been used strickly in relief for the White Sox this season.

BUt you are arguing that Floyd not haeger should be in the rotation?

 

Or are you saying haeger should be a rp instead of Macdougal?

 

Whichi argument are you making

Macdougal is a rp.

 

Haeger is a sp.

 

Im sorry but a SP who gives up 19 bb's in 28 ip, who does not get a lot of K's, is a recipe for disaster.

 

Id rather have a guy who's getting hit hard as hell, then aguy who is giving free passes.

What about a guy like Floyd who walks his fair share and gets hit hard.?

BUt you are arguing that Floyd not haeger should be in the rotation?

 

Or are you saying haeger should be a rp instead of Macdougal?

 

Whichi argument are you making

I'm saying Haeger is more deserving of taking Contreras' turn in the rotation than Floyd. I'm not too certain he's actually deserving, just more than Gavin Floyd.

Edited August 2, 200718 yr by Dick Allen

I have never been excited about Gavin Floyd. I did like the trade because I was of the opinion Garcia would be bad and the money saved would be nice and I am a huge Gio fan. I hoped Floyd would be as good as many thought 3 years ago, but was resigned to the bust most now think he really is. Floyd's ERA isn't getting better from when he was 22 or 23, its going higher. If you want to compare Danks to that, you're doing Jon a big disservice.

 

But John's ERA is getting worse from where it was 3 months ago...he has undoubtedly been worse in the last few months than he was in the first few. He only appears to be regressing, and yet he is getting older by the day. I suppose we should give up on him.

 

There is an undoubted learning curve for 99% of major league pitchers, and many simply just need to take their lumps and learn before they can be successful. Floyd has always been in a position where he was pitching for a team in contention, which cannot allow him to get consistent starts and take his lumps. Now, he finally has a chance to get those starts without any real disadvantage to his team because it is out of the race anyways. Just let him do it already.

Floyd has much better control than Haeger:

 

Floyd has 106 ip in AAA with 35 bbs

 

Haeger has 101 ip in AAA 57 bbs

 

Thats a pretty big difference.

Edited August 2, 200718 yr by Soxbadger

I'm responding to the post that Haegar's control problems are why he went back to Charlotte. He's being replaced with a guy who can't throw a strike to save his life this year. Its also not like Floyd is pinpoint.

 

We have a far more significant amount of money invested in Mac then we do in Haegar at this point. We are not the Yankees. Or the Red Sox. It is imperative that we try to get the players we have invested money in to try and get the ship righted. Especially considering the talent Mac has shown in the past compared to Haeger.

But John's ERA is getting worse from where it was 3 months ago...he has undoubtedly been worse in the last few months than he was in the first few. He only appears to be regressing, and yet he is getting older by the day. I suppose we should give up on him.

 

There is an undoubted learning curve for 99% of major league pitchers, and many simply just need to take their lumps and learn before they can be successful. Floyd has always been in a position where he was pitching for a team in contention, which cannot allow him to get consistent starts and take his lumps. Now, he finally has a chance to get those starts without any real disadvantage to his team because it is out of the race anyways. Just let him do it already.

4 starts in 2004 3.49 era

4 starts in 2005 10.04 era

11 starts in 2006 7.29 era

2 starts in 2007 10.04 era

 

Looks like he's not learning much. The curve is going the wrong way

 

As far as Danks, this is predicable. They had some stats on the YES feed from last nights game, and his BAA goes up drastically the more hitters have seen him. He'll have to make some adjustments, but his numbers are still better than I thought they would be. If the Sox were in contention, he'd probably be in Charlotte.

Edited August 2, 200718 yr by Dick Allen

We have a far more significant amount of money invested in Mac then we do in Haegar at this point. We are not the Yankees. Or the Red Sox. It is imperative that we try to get the players we have invested money in to try and get the ship righted. Especially considering the talent Mac has shown in the past compared to Haeger.

We have a lot more invested in Contreras than Floyd, but you think throwing Floyd out there is a good idea.

4 starts in 2004 3.49 era

4 starts in 2005 10.04 era

11 starts in 2006 7.29 era

2 starts in 2007 10.04 era

 

Looks like he's not learning much. The curve is going the wrong way

 

The point is you have to let them get regular starts to actually learn anything. Not sporadic starts from season to season.

 

In Greg Maddux's first 180 innings as a major league starter, he had an ERA of about 5.5. And his last 150 innings were worse than his first 30 innings.

 

In Jeremy Bonderman's first 360 innings, he had an ERA of about 5.3.

 

In John Smoltz's first 64 innings as a starter, his ERA was 5.48.

 

In Tom Glavine's first 245 innings, he had an ERA at about 4.8. In his first 50 innings, his ERA was 5.54.

 

The point is, young pitchers struggle all the time. And while Floyd has had 100 innings, he's never had consistent innings. He needs to be given the rest of the season to take his lumps, figure some things out, and see if he has a future at this.

My point is that there has been no one in the history of major league baseball who has been allowed to pitch over 100 innings at outset of his stint at the MLB level with an era of over 7. If you have a difficult time following that logic, I'm sorry. This has been what I've been trying to argue all along. I'm sorry if it's unclear.

The point is you have to let them get regular starts to actually learn anything. Not sporadic starts from season to season.

 

In Greg Maddux's first 180 innings as a major league starter, he had an ERA of about 5.5. And his last 150 innings were worse than his first 30 innings.

 

In Jeremy Bonderman's first 360 innings, he had an ERA of about 5.3.

 

In John Smoltz's first 64 innings as a starter, his ERA was 5.48.

 

In Tom Glavine's first 245 innings, he had an ERA at about 4.8. In his first 50 innings, his ERA was 5.54.

 

The point is, young pitchers struggle all the time. And while Floyd has had 100 innings, he's never had consistent innings. He needs to be given the rest of the season to take his lumps, figure some things out, and see if he has a future at this.

Well, then if you say Floyd is Maddux, or Glavin, or Smoltz then by all means start the rest of the year. I personally find him to be more like a better built Carlos Castillo. Its better off he doesn't take the mound.

and yes, an era of 6.46 accumulated almost entirely in the AL and an era of 7.32 accumulated almost entirely in the NL are very different.

We have a lot more invested in Contreras than Floyd, but you think throwing Floyd out there is a good idea.

 

Why do you suppose we stuck with Contreras this long? He's been awful for a full year now. He's also 40 years old, not 29 or whatever Mac is. Believe me, I hope Contreras gets it together somehow enough to either be traded without eating his contract or so he can start for us next season. It's become clear that he is only getting worse, not better. After a full year's worth of starts. Not 100 innings over 3 seasons. A full year of consistent starts he has been terrible.

 

But then again, you would have never taken the chance on Contreras in the first place, because in his 170 innings between NY in 04', he posted a 5.5 ERA. Under your theory, we should have cut him loose after 04'.

 

 

Well, then if you say Floyd is Maddux, or Glavin, or Smoltz then by all means start the rest of the year. I personally find him to be more like a better built Carlos Castillo. Its better off he doesn't take the mound.

 

I'm not saying he is them. I'm saying some HOF pitchers have struggled mightily at the beginning of their careers. How would we ever know if their GM's would have thought as you do? Maddux? He should be selling used cars! Glavine? Stocking the shelves at Jewel! Bonderman? Working at Wal-Mart! Smoltz? He'd make a great novelist!