Where is Obama during any of this? Didn't he say once that he'd stand with the Unions if they ever tried to ban collective bargaining?

Well, clearly he's been voted out of office because you refused to vote for him.

New Democrat slogan:

We won't actively work against progressive agendas nearly as much as Republicans!

Well, clearly he's been voted out of office because you refused to vote for him.

I meant past tense (i.e., Wisconsin & Ohio).

Well, clearly he's been voted out of office because you refused to vote for him he's a crappy President who did nothing to earn my vote.

 

fify

At least you guys have made it clear...you'd rather have national unions dismantled and basically start dismantling the New Deal since we'd never have progressive legislation passed again than vote for the President.

.you'd rather have national unions dismantled

 

You mean like the ones being dismantled while Obama is in office?

So why do you insist on casting a vote that will make both of those things happen?

We already said we're not voting for Obama.

 

 

Balta you have to acknowledge this awesome

Sqwert and Strange, you guys are going seriously hyperbolic here. Obama's policies and actions have clearly, demonstrably been different than Bush's. And if you know a fair amount about how the Iraq war got going in BushCo, you'd know quite clearly that Obama would not have gone down that road.

 

What you really mean to say is, Obama has not been change-y ENOUGH for your tastes. And I get that, that makes sense. Its just laughable that you push that all the way off the edge of the scale into Obama = Bush.

 

I'm disappointed in Obama too, on some things. That doesn't mean I need to resort to extremes to try to make a point.

 

At least you guys have made it clear...you'd rather have national unions dismantled and basically start dismantling the New Deal since we'd never have progressive legislation passed again than vote for the President.

 

Balta has made is clear: he'd rather support a weak President and bad Democrat politicians who will not enact any progressive policies and barely anything even left-leaning because Republicans are scary.

 

Conservatives win that end-game. Every time.

Balta has made is clear: he'd rather support a weak President and bad Democrat politicians who will not enact any progressive policies and barely anything even left-leaning because Republicans are scary.

 

Conservatives win that end-game. Every time.

What you're missing is that we actually gave a real life test to your proposal in 2000. Enough people voted for Ralph Nader to help GWB become President.

 

There are ZERO progressives who won from 2001-2007, and a whole lot who lost.

 

Conservatives win your end-game. Every time. And a whole lot more people die.

Sqwert and Strange, you guys are going seriously hyperbolic here. Obama's policies and actions have clearly, demonstrably been different than Bush's. And if you know a fair amount about how the Iraq war got going in BushCo, you'd know quite clearly that Obama would not have gone down that road.

 

What you really mean to say is, Obama has not been change-y ENOUGH for your tastes. And I get that, that makes sense. Its just laughable that you push that all the way off the edge of the scale into Obama = Bush.

 

I'm disappointed in Obama too, on some things. That doesn't mean I need to resort to extremes to try to make a point.

 

On some things, sure, he's been different than Bush. On a lot of things, including broad ideas on executive power, he's been just as bad if not worse than Bush. That doesn't mean I don't prefer Obama over Bush, despite whatever tortured (at Gitmo, thanks to Obama!) argument Balta will try to make. I do not think Obama would have invaded Iraq, but that boat sailed a long time ago and it's a nonsensical argument.

 

When you're 1/2 a mile down the road looking back at two people, you won't be able to see a whole lot of difference between them. This cuts both ways, because I'm sure we've all seen plenty of "RINO" accusations and Republicans lamenting having to vote for McCain just to keep Obama out of office. Why the hell would a hypothetical voter who's an out-and-out Communist ever even consider voting for Obama? Why would the staunchest Randriod Objectivist vote for Mitt Romney? This sort of thinking keeps the country locked into the petty squabbles and ultimately minor differences between Republicans and Democrats. You can't look at this through the narrow view of American mainstream politics.

What you're missing is that we actually gave a real life test to your proposal in 2000. The Dems ran a tree stump as their candidate Enough people voted for Ralph Nader to help GWB become President.

Fixed

What you're missing is that we actually gave a real life test to your proposal in 2000. Enough people voted for Ralph Nader to help GWB become President.

 

There are ZERO progressives who won from 2001-2007, and a whole lot who lost.

 

Conservatives win your end-game. Every time. And a whole lot more people die.

 

Still gotta explain the overall terribleness that was 2009-2011.

Conservatives win your end-game. Every time. And a whole lot more people die.

Balta, why do you believe that the Democrats are entitled to my vote?

Excellent response.

What you're missing is that we actually gave a real life test to your proposal in 2000. Enough people voted for Ralph Nader to help GWB become President.

 

There are ZERO progressives who won from 2001-2007, and a whole lot who lost.

 

Conservatives win your end-game. Every time. And a whole lot more people die.

 

I guess this means we get the gradual death of progressive policies over time at best.

Excellent response.

honestly that applies to this entire argument.

 

Soxtalk needs a serious smiley update, though.

Edited April 26, 201114 yr by StrangeSox

I guess this means we get the gradual death of progressive policies over time at best.

If that's the case, your choice leads to the quickest death.

Balta, if you continue to vote for s*** politicians, you'll just get s*** politicians in the future. At some point people in both parties need to make a stand, regardless of the consequences, and hope that in the future things will be different.

 

My side did the exact wrong thing there (which someone earlier was completely wrong on) - their response to Obama was to get MORE extreme, not more centrist. I enjoy (and agree with) the tea party extreme, but not the religious crazy social extreme that you apparently have to be in order to be a conservative these days.

 

Balta, why do you believe that the Democrats are entitled to my vote?

Because anyone who believes that a Republican would not be vastly worse is absolutely deluding him or herself. Either that, or he or she paid zero attention to the last decade.

If that's the case, your choice leads to the quickest death.

 

Better to rip a band-aid off.

Because anyone who believes that a Republican would not be vastly worse is absolutely deluding him or herself. Either that, or he or she paid zero attention to the last decade.

 

Maybe they should run a candidate who won't give in to the Republicans on every issue?

 

Gotta save all that political capital, I guess.

Remember when the Democrats completely bought into the Republicans' budget/deficit narrative and cut fuel subsidies for the poor and took the grey wolf off of the endangered species list? That was pretty awesome.

Here's a few of Obama's campaign promises. Guess how many of these were broken?

 

Repeal the Bush tax cuts for higher incomes

Sign the Employee Free Choice Act, making it easier for workers to unionize

Forbid companies in bankruptcy from giving executives bonuses

Create a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners

Close the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center

Expand the child and dependent care credit

Increase the capital gains and dividends taxes for higher-income taxpayers

Close loopholes in the corporate tax deductibility of CEO pay

End income tax for seniors making less than $50,000

End no-bid federal contracts above $25,000

Allow imported prescription drugs

Change federal rules so small businesses owned by people with disabilities can get preferential treatment for federal contracts.

Form international group to help Iraq refugees

Restore habeas corpus rights for "enemy combatants"

Restrict warrantless wiretaps

Allow five days of public comment before signing bills

Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials

Double funding for afterschool programs

Urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws

Reduce earmarks to 1994 levels

Enact windfall profits tax for oil companies

Create cap and trade system with interim goals to reduce global warming

Require plug-in fleet at the White House

Provide an annual report on "state of our energy future"

Allow penalty-free hardship withdrawals from retirement accounts in 2008 and 2009

Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN

Create a public option health plan for a new National Health Insurance Exchange.

Introduce a comprehensive immigration bill in the first year