WTF?? Initiation or Hazing?

[Texsox]

Its basically running a business, managing people, governing yourselves, learning to cope with different kinds of people etc. Im not the type to claim I made the life long bonds from it, but it was an experience in my life I would never give back or trade anything for.

 

Great points.

[Texsox]

But you can attribute these things to the societal expectations of college in general. In a small area, you are packing in tens of thousands of 18-22 year old students with little responsibilities and hormones raging. Go to a football game tailgate and pick out the responsible ones.

 

And if you are asking people to brag about their community service, I think you'd be finding someone that does it for the wrong reasons. I certainly don't brag about my community service, funny anecdotes that happen I'll tell my family and friends, but I don't wear it as a badge of honor. I see it as a chance to use my privilege in productive ways, as do most around me.

 

I think college students getting together and exchanging drinking stories just is what we do. We go to boring classes, and a lot of college students to explore themselves socially and blow off steam go out to the bars and meet people and act irresponsibly. I've had very funny stories happen to me at the bars. I think you have to, if I remember the fight thread. I don't think these stories should be defining outlooks on a persons character, any more than an obscene joke a remark on a persons moral code.

 

In essence, I see you take pot shots at fraternities too much. The system has it's problems, but moreso due to corrupt people than a corrupt program. The greek system might have in fact put some positive influences in an otherwise unruly person, where without he would have been the same without these influences.

 

For instance, I know many eagle scouts. Some of them are in jail right now. But the one whom I grew up with and has me in awe of the program is the one who in his junior year of college with a good job that was going to get him salary-position as soon as he graduated, promptly joined the marines because he felt a sense of duty of service. That's a testament to the people and lessons he met as an eagle scout.

 

So perhaps those of us that are making a positive affect on the community around us, the many many thousands of us, through our fraternities and sororities could start sticking in your mind more than the tales of immaturity that you've used to condemn the system.

 

I do not believe pointing to documented cases of hazing, and stating that when the pendulum swings to where community service is valued higher than parties, will be a giant step forward for Greek society is a "pot shot".

 

Your point about bragging about community service is a very good one. But how is bragging about how wasted you got last weekend, or how some chick was so wasted she did three guys, better? Perhaps that we found a reason to dismiss talk about community service and defended talk about partying, an indication of the relative coolness of each topic to college students in general?

 

And again, I am not anti Greek. I am anti ritualistic traditions and requirements that place youth who are under tremendous peer pressure to do humiliating and potentially dangerous acts as part of their initiation. The fact that these abuses have been admitted and Universities have seen fit to enact rules against them, makes me believe the allegations are true. Again, voluntary vs. forced. And I understand that members voluntarily allow this to happen to themselves, but should a University allow these acts to happen to their students via authorized and approved University organizations?

 

I'm in favor of less partying and more service. If that's pot shots. OK, I will accept that.

[bmags]

you don't consider using a story that had nothing to do with fraternities hazing to call out fraternities taking a pot shot at them?

 

Once again, I wish I could take a high ground. But on the weekends I tailgate and go to the bars. I wish my stories of studying really hard on Sunday were as interesting as the two nights previous, but to me and my friends, recalling the fun we had together over the weekend I don't think should be the defining moment of our character.

[dasox24]

As a current member of a fraternity, I must say that, yes, the social side of things is definitely talked about more. And that's probably b/c we throw some ridiculous parties that people couldn't do if they weren't in a fraternity. For instance, my fraternity has the Ying Yang Twins playing for us the night before the UT-Alabama game, and we've already sold like 500 tickets (more than a month in advance). We should have about 2,000 people there, which will make for one awesome night.

 

However, I hate the notion that "frat guys" just buy their way out of community service and whatnot. That's just not true. Actually, I'm planning on spending my Friday afternoon at the Boys & Girls Club of Knoxville to do some volunteer work. As for grades, I have a 3.5 through my 1st two years (not great, but pretty good) and I actually think if I weren't involved heavily in my fraternity (and other organizations) that I would probably have lower grades, and quite frankly, look less attractive to employers (though that's not even remotely close to the reason I joined a fraternity, I've learned that it's true).

 

There's definitely some bad fraternities that don't do anything good for society, but I hate when they all get grouped together. At least at UT, the average all Greek GPA is higher than the non-greek GPA, which is a testament to the Greek System here. So, not only do we make better grades as a whole, we also provide a lot more community service than the average non-greek student. Granted, it's not a lot of community service (only required to do 6 hours/semester), but it's better than nothing. And even if most guys aren't doing it for the right reasons (b/c they're forced to), at least they're out there making a difference with underprivileged kids, etc.

Edited September 16, 2008 by dasox24

[Texsox]

As a current member of a fraternity, I must say that, yes, the social side of things is definitely talked about more. And that's probably b/c we throw some ridiculous parties that people couldn't do if they weren't in a fraternity. For instance, my fraternity has the Ying Yang Twins playing for us the night before the UT-Alabama game, and we've already sold like 500 tickets (more than a month in advance). We should have about 2,000 people there, which will make for one awesome night.

 

However, I hate the notion that "frat guys" just buy their way out of community service and whatnot. That's just not true. Actually, I'm planning on spending my Friday afternoon at the Boys & Girls Club of Knoxville to do some volunteer work. As for grades, I have a 3.5 through my 1st two years (not great, but pretty good) and I actually think if I weren't involved heavily in my fraternity (and other organizations) that I would probably have lower grades, and quite frankly, look less attractive to employers (though that's not even remotely close to the reason I joined a fraternity, I've learned that it's true).

 

There's definitely some bad fraternities that don't do anything good for society, but I hate when they all get grouped together. At least at UT, the average all Greek GPA is higher than the non-greek GPA, which is a testament to the Greek System here. So, not only do we make better grades as a whole, we also provide a lot more community service than the average non-greek student. Granted, it's not a lot of community service (only required to do 6 hours/semester), but it's better than nothing. And even if most guys aren't doing it for the right reasons (b/c they're forced to), at least they're out there making a difference with underprivileged kids, etc.

 

Again, I don't want to leave the impression I am anti-Greek. I can list a whole lot of good from Fraternities. Most have been mentioned here. IMHO things swung too far away from the stated Mission Statements and now are swinging back (again IMHO) in a better direction.

 

But y'all are kidding yourself that some fraternities don't pride themselves on throwing the biggest parties, more so then the biggest service projects.

 

So call me wrong, but I think (even) less partying, more positive programs, equals glory days returning for Greeks on campus and the possible end to the portrayal of frat guys as drunk perverts. Again I ask you guys in fraternities, when was the last time you debated who has the better fraternity based on parties and when was the last time you debated who did more for the community or who got better grades? That's some of the reason the negative stereotypes exist.

 

And I understand the marketing and the competition for the best members around campus. You have to attract them with something, so the best house or best parties sell better then the most service hours or working for the best grades. It's a tough battle y'all face on campus.

[bmags]

Again, I don't want to leave the impression I am anti-Greek. I can list a whole lot of good from Fraternities. Most have been mentioned here. IMHO things swung too far away from the stated Mission Statements and now are swinging back (again IMHO) in a better direction.

 

But y'all are kidding yourself that some fraternities don't pride themselves on throwing the biggest parties, more so then the biggest service projects.

 

So call me wrong, but I think (even) less partying, more positive programs, equals glory days returning for Greeks on campus and the possible end to the portrayal of frat guys as drunk perverts. Again I ask you guys in fraternities, when was the last time you debated who has the better fraternity based on parties and when was the last time you debated who did more for the community or who got better grades? That's some of the reason the negative stereotypes exist.

 

I understand what you are saying Tex, I just disagree with it. I understand the perception, but my reality is different. I have a problem with fraternities that haze. My fraternity doesn't haze. So, what I can control (what my fraternity does), I do control. And on Mizzou's campus, you'd be surprised when talking about what houses are looked down upon. For instance, the two times of the year when the big blood drives, can drives and collective service projects are done is during our Homecoming and Greek Week. Houses that do nothing but party and don't contribute are not attractive partners to be paired with. And some of those houses are slowly dying out, while some just have too large of alumni base to go for a while. For instance, my fraternity sets a goal to get our members to get involved in campus organizations, and move into leadership positions in those. We use the people that have been in these organizations from our house to alert everyone when applications are due, tips for their interviews, letters of recommendations. And in turn, besides the individual benefit to the members in getting in leadership positions, provides great P.R. for our house and helps network us with more recruits.

 

Houses that do nothing but party are there, and they will be there. But they are laughed at. Not looked down upon, but not really taken seriously.

 

So it sucks that there are fraternities that haze physically and mentally. But there are many houses that don't, and in not are inherently trying to combat that behavior. These same houses are also forming organizations for rape awareness and Gamma (greeks advocating something management of alcohol) to educate about alcohol abuse, and are fighting the very stereotypes you are presenting.

 

So I just resent your notion that we are enabling these poorer houses by being in the system. We are actively trying to move the system away from that. However, it doesn't have to be extreme. Because they are solely focused on drinking and the like does not mean we then have to advocate a dry house and no drinking in greek town. We can have the same social experience that every other college student who chooses to is having, without the stereotypes.

 

And maybe unsurprisingly, it is hard to spread word through the media about THESE groups and projects, because that is seen as propoganda and misleading people from the real truth, that we are all womanizing drunks paying for friends.

[Texsox]

I understand what you are saying Tex, I just disagree with it. I understand the perception, but my reality is different. I have a problem with fraternities that haze. My fraternity doesn't haze. So, what I can control (what my fraternity does), I do control. And on Mizzou's campus, you'd be surprised when talking about what houses are looked down upon. For instance, the two times of the year when the big blood drives, can drives and collective service projects are done is during our Homecoming and Greek Week. Houses that do nothing but party and don't contribute are not attractive partners to be paired with. And some of those houses are slowly dying out, while some just have too large of alumni base to go for a while. For instance, my fraternity sets a goal to get our members to get involved in campus organizations, and move into leadership positions in those. We use the people that have been in these organizations from our house to alert everyone when applications are due, tips for their interviews, letters of recommendations. And in turn, besides the individual benefit to the members in getting in leadership positions, provides great P.R. for our house and helps network us with more recruits.

 

Houses that do nothing but party are there, and they will be there. But they are laughed at. Not looked down upon, but not really taken seriously.

 

So it sucks that there are fraternities that haze physically and mentally. But there are many houses that don't, and in not are inherently trying to combat that behavior. These same houses are also forming organizations for rape awareness and Gamma (greeks advocating something management of alcohol) to educate about alcohol abuse, and are fighting the very stereotypes you are presenting.

 

So I just resent your notion that we are enabling these poorer houses by being in the system. We are actively trying to move the system away from that. However, it doesn't have to be extreme. Because they are solely focused on drinking and the like does not mean we then have to advocate a dry house and no drinking in greek town. We can have the same social experience that every other college student who chooses to is having, without the stereotypes.

 

And maybe unsurprisingly, it is hard to spread word through the media about THESE groups and projects, because that is seen as propoganda and misleading people from the real truth, that we are all womanizing drunks paying for friends.

 

You are highlighting exactly what I've been saying, albeit I must not be saying it very well. The pendulum is swinging and needs to continue. Sadly those houses that are dragging behind, like you mentioned, are hurting those that are leading the way, like your Fraternity. It's a tough system, and Fraternities will face some difficult recruiting as the parents of tomorrow, that were on campus in the 80s and 90s, when too many Fraternities were out of control, will direct their children away from Greek Society.

 

And appreciate the view that organizations like GAMMA (mature is what you were looking for) are in response to abuses by your predecessors. The value for the college community is the resources that Fraternities bring can benefit the campus as a whole with these programs. Again, the types of positive programs that need to be a told as a bigger part of the Fraternity story.

[bmags]

Well I think we are seeing eye to eye now. I understand now what you were saying with the pendulum. Mizzou changing to a dry-campus has done wonders for it in terms of beauty on campus and improvements to the Greek community. I understand that with that mired past comes the reputation with that past. It's just even when I see the joke that you made, it is annoying. At the very least, I find it encouraging the reputation my non-Greek friends associate now than when we first arrived, when I had the same associations, and in fact could never see myself being in one. It's harder, once you intimately get to know the system, like I did, or just intimately get to know people in it, like my friends, to continue those negative thoughts when you have positive ones confronting them. I'd be curious to see what it looks like in 10 years.

[Texsox]

I feel a lot more positive about the future of Fraternities today then I did ten years ago. There were serious discussions about the future and the future was not looking bright. What has framed a lot of my thinking on this was the disgust that my peers had for what their Fraternities became. They compared their experiences as a rushee and their son's experiences and came away with negative attitudes. I heard over and over again that things changed.

 

Now I believe when their grandchildren are arriving on campus, and if they head over to their old Fraternity, they will again see changes, but this time for the better.