Ground Up Human Baby Pills

[StrangeSox]

Well i'm sorry, you have no facts, so creationism and evolutionary thought are apparently on equal footing. No facts = no belief. Right Soxbadger?

 

I missed this the first time around.

 

You've made this convolution before. Cosmology (big bang) and biology (evolution) are not the same thing. Even the start of life (abiogenesis) isn't the same thing as evolution.

 

So, no, not on equal footing. We have good evidence for the Big Bang, essentially indisputable evidence for evolution and some good working theories on abiogenesis. None of those things categorically declares "there is no god" or makes a claim on any sort of prime-mover or what came before the Big Bang. Young Earth Creationism is a silly belief that was discarded by Christian scientists who actually were curious about this stuff about two centuries ago (Lyell and Darwin). YEC makes certain predictions that can be tested, and it fails every single time. The same thing happens to actual scientific ideas like the aether theory of EM propagation.

[Jenksismyhero]

I missed this the first time around.

 

You've made this convolution before. Cosmology (big bang) and biology (evolution) are not the same thing. Even the start of life (abiogenesis) isn't the same thing as evolution.

 

So, no, not on equal footing. We have good evidence for the Big Bang, essentially indisputable evidence for evolution and some good working theories on abiogenesis. None of those things categorically declares "there is no god" or makes a claim on any sort of prime-mover or what came before the Big Bang. Young Earth Creationism is a silly belief that was discarded by Christian scientists who actually were curious about this stuff about two centuries ago (Lyell and Darwin). YEC makes certain predictions that can be tested, and it fails every single time. The same thing happens to actual scientific ideas like the aether theory of EM propagation.

 

I'm not suggesting they are the same thing but they are on the same chain of events that must have happened for you and I to be here talking through the internet. You're ignoring my point -- there is no explanation for the beginning of something from nothing which eventually led to the evolution of life. Break it down and distinguish as many of the variables as you want in that chain, but that's the basic point i'm making. It's a 100% belief and theory of "x" which started the big bang and evolution. Whether those exist independently isn't my point.

 

Edit: Whether you believe the magical man in the sky created the universe or some other dimension created energy or whatever the hell that theory is - that comes down to belief that cannot be proven or disproven.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

I'm not suggesting they are the same thing but they are on the same chain of events that must have happened for you and I to be here talking through the internet. You're ignoring my point -- there is no explanation for the beginning of something from nothing which eventually led to the evolution of life. Break it down and distinguish as many of the variables as you want in that chain, but that's the basic point i'm making. It's a 100% belief and theory of "x" which started the big bang and evolution. Whether those exist independently isn't my point.

 

But not knowing "what came before the big bang" doesn't mean every other theory Big Bang and after is now up for question, or that the default position to take to a question without a currently known answer is "god did it." This is another example of the sort of privilege that I was talking about that majority groups get afforded in society.

 

There's an awful lot of evidence for the Big Bang (a theory that a Catholic priest came up with, btw!). There's an awful lot of evidence for the universe being roughly 13.6 Billion years old and the earth being something like 6 billion years old. There's an awful lot of evidence that all life on the planet descended from a common ancestor that originated a couple of billion years ago.

 

There's no evidence for a young earth and a whole lot against it. There's no evidence for special creation of man in his current state and a whole lot against it. Accepting mainstream scientific theories for cosmology and biology doesn't require rejection of Christianity, but it does require rejecting some of the silly claims more fundamentalist strains preach.

Edited May 11, 2012 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Edit: Whether you believe the magical man in the sky created the universe or some other dimension created energy or whatever the hell that theory is - that comes down to belief that cannot be proven or disproven.

 

That statement doesn't say a thing about the Big Bang or evolution or cosmology or anything else. It's a philosophical question once you get beyond a certain point in the past, at least for now.

 

but you do see why "how can you believe something came from nothing?" isn't a convincing pro-religion argument, right?

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

That statement doesn't say a thing about the Big Bang or evolution or cosmology or anything else. It's a philosophical question once you get beyond a certain point in the past, at least for now.

 

but you do see why "how can you believe something came from nothing?" isn't a convincing pro-religion argument, right?

 

I've never contended it was a good argument in support of religion. I've always maintained that in that basic sense you're still relying on an unprovable belief, and in that sense, both sides are doing the same thing.

 

[StrangeSox]

I've never contended it was a good argument in support of religion. I've always maintained that in that basic sense you're still relying on an unprovable belief, and in that sense, both sides are doing the same thing.

 

But only on that one specific issue of "how did it all start" i.e. pre-Big Bang. Your error is then expanding that to anything else. Once you take "the universe exists" as a given assumption, you don't have to worry about that.

[Jenksismyhero]

But only on that one specific issue of "how did it all start" i.e. pre-Big Bang. Your error is then expanding that to anything else. Once you take "the universe exists" as a given assumption, you don't have to worry about that.

 

There are a lot of people who believe in God and also believe in the Big Bang and everything that comes after that. Most people on this board apparently think that's a ridiculous thing to believe.

[BigSqwert]

There are a lot of people who believe in God and also believe in the Big Bang and everything that comes after that. Most people on this board apparently think that's a ridiculous thing to believe.

I agree with your first statement. Not sure about the 2nd. There are approximately 10 active posters in the buster. You're exaggerating a bit.

[Jenksismyhero]

I agree with your first statement. Not sure about the 2nd. There are approximately 10 active posters in the buster. You're exaggerating a bit.

 

sorry, by board i mean those in the buster who've been involved in the two major threads the last few days.

[StrangeSox]

There are a lot of people who believe in God and also believe in the Big Bang and everything that comes after that. Most people on this board apparently think that's a ridiculous thing to believe.

 

No, this specific line of discussion started after Crimson criticized Young Earth Creationism. That is a ridiculous thing to believe, but I know I've linked to Ken Miller's book multiple times on here before. He's a Catholic biologist and one of the key witnesses at the Dover trial.

[Soxbadger]

I think it flows beautifully from the old to the new testament. If you really want to actually discuss that sort of thing and are actually interested, I could more easily do it through PMs where I can give references to different things that come up. For instance, there are some fascinating traits of some Jewish customs in particular with passover dinner that point directly to a Triune God as well as to Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection (if at all familiar, think of the 3 matzahs).

 

I didn't get a chance to study Judaism while in college (mainly Islam, Christianity, and Eastern Religions), but I think it would be pretty cool study to see the all of the connections.

 

I have been to 60 sedars in my life, I have never once heard any reference to the Matzah/Afikomen as a reference to Triune god. In fact the 3 matzahs are basically meaningless outside of the Afikomen, and I couldnt even begin to try and explain how the desert Matzah would relate to Christianity. In fact, the last piece of Matzah may even be a substitute for Lamb, as it was no longer allowed to be sacrificed after the fall of the First Temple. At a Sedar, they dont even discuss the 3 pieces all that is discussed is the Afikomen (desert piece) and how the Sedar can not end until it is found and eaten. Generally Jews believe the 3 pieces of Matzah stand for the 3 classes in Jewish society, 1) the priests, 2) priest assistants and 3) the remaining members others believe it represents the 3 temples. It should also be noted that not every Jewish Sedar has to have 3 pieces, it is just tradition. The reason that this is important is because the Sedar is basically the Haggadah. So if 3 pieces was an integral part of the ritual, it would have been written in the Haggadah, the same way that that the Karpas, Maror, Charoest etc is specifically mentioned.

 

Here is from Jewfaq:

 

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

 

Watch out for Christianized versions of the haggadah. The Christian "last supper" is generally believed to have been a Pesach seder, so many Christians recreate the ritual of the seder, and the haggadahs that they use for this purpose tend to reinterpret the significance of the holiday and its symbols to fit into their Christian theology. For example, they say that the three matzahs represent the Trinity, with the broken one representing Jesus on the cross (in Judaism, the three matzahs represent the three Temples, two of which have been destroyed, and the third of which will be built when the mashiach comes). They speak of the paschal lamb as a prophecy of Jesus, rather than a remembrance of the lamb's blood on the doorposts in Egypt. If you want to learn what Pesach means to Jews, then these "messianic" haggadahs aren't for you.

 

The key point you made was you havent studied Judaism. If you study Christianity, they basically try and backwards engineer the connection to Judaism. If you study Judaism you are shown how they are absolutely not compatible.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Soxbadger]

There are a lot of people who believe in God and also believe in the Big Bang and everything that comes after that. Most people on this board apparently think that's a ridiculous thing to believe.

 

I hope you dont put me in that category.

 

I am absolutely fine with Deism.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I've never contended it was a good argument in support of religion. I've always maintained that in that basic sense you're still relying on an unprovable belief, and in that sense, both sides are doing the same thing.

 

This is true for the "what happened in the first second of the universe?" question, but there are numerous other questions about the universe that ARE provable (or disprovable).

 

If someone believes that all life on Earth was made 6,000 years ago and another person thinks that's totally wrong, that's not a "oh well, who knows who might be right?" stalemate. The first dude is wrong.

[StrangeSox]

This is true for the "what happened in the first second of the universe?" question, but there are numerous other questions about the universe that ARE provable (or disprovable).

 

If someone believes that all life on Earth was made 6,000 years ago and another person thinks that's totally wrong, that's not a "oh well, who knows who might be right?" stalemate. The first dude is wrong.

 

There's a handful of YEC's who accept that all of the evidence points to an old earth, common ancestor etc. but nevertheless reject that in favor of their faith. If there's a god and it is some Loki-type trickster, Last Thursdayism could be true!

[CanOfCorn]

Jenks...

 

I see proving the Big Bang theory or "something out of nothing" as a type of criminal investigation. You have a theory of who did the crime and you try to find evidence that leads you backwards to that exact moment the crime occured. Along the way, you'll have twists and turns and there is certainly a chance that the person you thought did it could be wrong. But, you need to have a theory to start with.

 

Now jump to the Big Bang...so far, all of the data presented came from the theory of the Big Bang. The problem is...I don't know if humans have the capacity to EVER determine what was before the Big Bang. And to further the argument, if there was some sort of deity that started the universe, what was before that? Just that deity? I highly doubt that. Maybe it's like The Matrix? One of the main reasons for religion in general is to have some sort of answer to these questions that are nearly unanswerable or unprovable. But, I choose to be on the side of science where things can be proven which lead to better and better reasoning.

 

It's not right or wrong. Just different ways to look at the universe.

[greg775]

I have been to 60 sedars in my life, I have never once heard any reference to the Matzah/Afikomen as a reference to Triune god. In fact the 3 matzahs are basically meaningless outside of the Afikomen, and I couldnt even begin to try and explain how the desert Matzah would relate to Christianity. In fact, the last piece of Matzah may even be a substitute for Lamb, as it was no longer allowed to be sacrificed after the fall of the First Temple. At a Sedar, they dont even discuss the 3 pieces all that is discussed is the Afikomen (desert piece) and how the Sedar can not end until it is found and eaten. Generally Jews believe the 3 pieces of Matzah stand for the 3 classes in Jewish society, 1) the priests, 2) priest assistants and 3) the remaining members others believe it represents the 3 temples. It should also be noted that not every Jewish Sedar has to have 3 pieces, it is just tradition. The reason that this is important is because the Sedar is basically the Haggadah. So if 3 pieces was an integral part of the ritual, it would have been written in the Haggadah, the same way that that the Karpas, Maror, Charoest etc is specifically mentioned.

 

Here is from Jewfaq:

 

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

 

 

 

The key point you made was you havent studied Judaism. If you study Christianity, they basically try and backwards engineer the connection to Judaism. If you study Judaism you are shown how they are absolutely not compatible.

 

You've been to 60 sedars? Wow.

Do you enjoy them?

I thought you were a nonbeliever from your posts on this issue, but I guess u are religious too.

 

[CanOfCorn]

You've been to 60 sedars? Wow.

Do you enjoy them?

I thought you were a nonbeliever from your posts on this issue, but I guess u are religious too.

 

You can go and enjoy the time with your family and participate in the ritual but not necessarily believe the tenets behind it. Because I've been to about 40 as well...and I'm a doubter. But I like the family-time.

[Soxbadger]

You've been to 60 sedars? Wow.

Do you enjoy them?

I thought you were a nonbeliever from your posts on this issue, but I guess u are religious too.

 

Passover is probably my favorite holiday due to the message (which is non-religious). Passover is the theoretical history of my people, so while I do not believe in some parts, I do think that the message that the story is telling is important.

 

In fact, there is an argument to be made that the story of passover and its message is one of the single most important ideas of humanity.

 

That even if you are on top today, that at one point we were slaves to Pharaoh. And Passover is to make sure that we never forget where we came from, that as the children of slaves, we have an ethical obligation to ensure that no other people are treated that way, because we are not free, until all other people in the world are free. And as long as they suffer, we suffer as well.

 

There is a simple beauty in that idea, that we should be empathetic, even to our enemies, because no one deserves to be a slave, no one deserves to be treated unfairly. Because we once were treated unfairly, and we remember every year what it was like.

 

Its just different. You can still feel the suffering, it is ingrained into our collective memory. And it is why I am harsh on them as well, because when it comes to Palestine, they are no better than Pharaoh, taking away their land, treating them unfairly, that is no better. Just because we have suffered, does not mean we get a free pass.

[StrangeSox]

I know I already mentioned it in this thread, but I really liked this pop-archaeology book. It taught me a whole bunch about both the OT stories and the people who wrote them that I was previously unaware of. It made me appreciate the rich cultural legacy a lot more than I previously had.

 

Finkelstein, director of Tel Aviv University's excavations at Megiddo (ancient Armageddon), and Silberman, author of a series of successful and intriguing books on the political and cultural dimensions of archeology, present for the first time to a general audience the results of recent research, which reveals more clearly that while the Bible may be the most important piece of Western literature--serving concrete political, cultural and religious purposes--many of the events recorded in the Old Testament are not historically accurate. Finkelstein and Silberman do not aim to undermine the Bible's import, but to demonstrate why it became the basic document for a distinct religious community under particular political circumstances. For example, they maintain that the Exodus was not a single dramatic event, as described in the second book of the Bible, but rather a series of occurrences over a long period of time. The Old Testament account is, according to the authors, neither historical truth nor literary fiction, but a powerful expression of memory and hope constructed to serve particular political purposes at the time it was composed. The authors claim quite convincingly that the kingdoms of Israel and Judah became radically different regions even before the time of King David; the northern lands were densely populated, with a booming agriculture-based economy, while the southern region was sparsely populated by migratory pastoral groups. Furthermore, they contend, "we still have no hard archaeological evidence--despite the unparalleled biblical description of its grandeur--that Jerusalem was anything more than a modest highland village in the time of David, Solomon, and Rehoboam." Fresh, stimulating and highly engaging, this book will hold greatest appeal for readers familiar with the Bible, in particular the Old Testament--unfortunately, a shrinking percentage of the population.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah I watch basically every single History show on unearthing the bible, etc, etc. If its a historical relic, Ive probably seen something about it, Shroud of Turin, Ark of the Covenant, Holy Grail, True Cross, Crown of Thorns, Holy Lance, etc.

 

Just because I dont believe, doesnt mean I havent studied it. You never know when your going to have to pull out some knowledge in an argument.

 

I like to keep people off guard with my biblical knowledge, its been helpful more than once.

[kageman129]

Man, I wish I could fully retain all of the information that I learn in church so I could contribute in the discussion better. I believe in the Triune God and I believe that after death, believers in Christ will be in heaven and life will continue and be perfect. Those who don't believe will be in hell and have the devil to deal with.

 

Every year my church does a program called "The Alpha Course", its actually starting up this Sunday night. It answers a bunch of questions like "How do you know God exists?", "Who is Jesus?", etc. Its all geared toward unbelievers and answering these tough questions. I did it last year, and like I said, not being the smartest guy, I couldn't retain all the knowledge; however, I've grown up believing in the Bible and Jesus as my Savior. It is my belief, I put my faith in Christ. For those who don't, I don't judge you, I don't think bad about anyone. I know some believe and many do not, its life. Its free-will.

 

 

I would really encourage any of you to find a local Alpha Course, or online course if that even exists. Even if it doesn't "convert" anyone to believing in Jesus, at least its a way to put your thoughts/beliefs up against Christianity.

 

Also, someone had said somewhere in this that Mormon and Christianity is related. It most certainly is not related. Mormonism is a cult. Christianity is a religion. There is a difference there.

[BigSqwert]

Mormonism is a cult. Christianity is a religion. There is a difference there.

Oh come on now. This crosses the line.

 

You were raised Christian so of course you think your beliefs are a religion. If your parents raised you as a Mormon you'd feel that Mormonism is a religion.

 

Also, for someone to mention "I won't judge you" and then call a differing religion a cult in the same breath is quite funny IMO.

Edited May 11, 2012 by BigSqwert

[kageman129]

Oh come on now. This crosses the line.

 

You were raised Christian so of course you think your beliefs are a religion. If your parents raised you as a Mormon you'd feel that Mormonism is a religion.

 

Also, for someone to mention "I won't judge you" and then call a differing religion a cult in the same breath is quite funny IMO.

 

 

Not judging, I guess it sounds judgmental but really, I mean that as I would never hate someone for it. I know people have different beliefs. Some of my best friends don't believe in God, some unbelievers are the nicest people out there, and some believers are the worst people out there. It is what it is.

[BigSqwert]

"Your sister is a total idiot but I'm not judging"

[kageman129]

I guess I just know that it isn't right, according to my beliefs. Its plain against what the Bible says, which makes it wrong. I have heard many sermons saying Mormonism is a cult. Don't take my words for it, if you think it isn't, Google it. Then again, you can Google anything and come up with an "answer". So, as I said, I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe.