Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. 91 pitches in 5 innings in his second major league start is proof of absolutely nothing. Rich Harden threw 109 pitches in 5 innings versus the Sox. I suppose that means he has no business pitching for the A's also. Cotts went 5 2/3 innings, K'ed 6, walked 2, posted a WHIP of 1.23, and struck out ARod twice. While I'm not ready to put him in Cooperstown just yet, I'm not going to point to his pitch count and say he doesn't belong. He's showed some good things and is certainly no worse than any of our other 5th starter options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. 91 pitches in 5 innings in his second major league start is proof of absolutely nothing. Rich Harden threw 109 pitches in 5 innings versus the Sox. I suppose that means he has no business pitching for the A's also. Cotts went 5 2/3 innings, K'ed 6, walked 2, posted a WHIP of 1.23, and struck out ARod twice. While I'm not ready to put him in Cooperstown just yet, I'm not going to point to his pitch count and say he doesn't belong. He's showed some good things and is certainly no worse than any of our other 5th starter options. Check out results and tell me im wrong again. Go ahead. The guy couldnt stop walking guys in the minors, it was obvious what would happen with the big club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 You keep forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that as the season went on, he did, in fact, drastically reduce his walks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I'm guessing Cotts will be making his third ML start on Friday against the Rangers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I'm guessing Cotts will be making his third ML start on Friday against the Rangers ? Yes, and it will be so great to be able to see him once again! I hope I'll be able to talk with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Yes, and it will be so great to be able to see him once again! I hope I'll be able to talk with him. Wonderful. A 5 hour walk-a-thon again . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Wonderful. A 5 hour walk-a-thon again . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I'm guessing Cotts will be making his third ML start on Friday against the Rangers ? Oh Hot Damn!! C'mon Friday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Oh Hot Damn!! C'mon Friday... Ok, Steff. We get your point now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. 91 pitches in 5 innings in his second major league start is proof of absolutely nothing. Rich Harden threw 109 pitches in 5 innings versus the Sox. I suppose that means he has no business pitching for the A's also. Cotts went 5 2/3 innings, K'ed 6, walked 2, posted a WHIP of 1.23, and struck out ARod twice. While I'm not ready to put him in Cooperstown just yet, I'm not going to point to his pitch count and say he doesn't belong. He's showed some good things and is certainly no worse than any of our other 5th starter options. Check out results and tell me im wrong again. Go ahead. The guy couldnt stop walking guys in the minors, it was obvious what would happen with the big club. OK, you're wrong, again. I said that his pitch count demonstrates nothing concerning his ability to pitch in the MLB. You said it did. I think you're wrong. If you say he walks too many men, I can't argue with that. But...plenty of pitchers are successful while walking too many guys. Cotts walked 56 in 106.3 innings in Birmingham, for 4.74/9 innings. Al Leiter is walking 5.54 batters/9 innings. Kerry Wood 4.44, Russ Ortiz 4.23, Hideo Nomo 4.08. I'm not saying Cotts is as good as these guys YET, but he's shown in the minors that he can pitch. Would we rather that those walks were singles or doubles? At least his walk total would be low then, right? By the way, Danny Wright, who seems to be everyone's darling now, is also walking 4.74/9. Bottom line is that Cotts had a very servicable outing his last time out, especially for a fifth starter, and deserves another one. If he walks 7 in 4 innings, perhaps he should go back down until next season, but if he puts up another 6 innings with 3 runs and 3 walks, keep him around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. 91 pitches in 5 innings in his second major league start is proof of absolutely nothing. Rich Harden threw 109 pitches in 5 innings versus the Sox. I suppose that means he has no business pitching for the A's also. Cotts went 5 2/3 innings, K'ed 6, walked 2, posted a WHIP of 1.23, and struck out ARod twice. While I'm not ready to put him in Cooperstown just yet, I'm not going to point to his pitch count and say he doesn't belong. He's showed some good things and is certainly no worse than any of our other 5th starter options. Check out results and tell me im wrong again. Go ahead. The guy couldnt stop walking guys in the minors, it was obvious what would happen with the big club. OK, you're wrong, again. I said that his pitch count demonstrates nothing concerning his ability to pitch in the MLB. You said it did. I think you're wrong. If you say he walks too many men, I can't argue with that. But...plenty of pitchers are successful while walking too many guys. Cotts walked 56 in 106.3 innings, for 4.74/9 innings. Al Leiter is walking 5.54 batters/9 innings. Kerry Wood 4.44, Russ Ortiz 4.23, Hideo Nomo 4.08. I'm not saying Cotts is as good as these guys YET, but he's shown in the minors that he can pitch. Would we rather that those walks were singles or doubles? At least his walk total would be low then, right? By the way, Danny Wright, who seems to be everyone's darling now, is also walking 4.74/9. Bottom line is that Cotts had a very servicable outing his last time out, especially for a fifth starter, and deserves another one. If he walks 7 in 4 innings, perhaps he should go back down until next season, but if he puts up another 6 innings with 3 runs and 3 walks, keep him around. Whatever happened to the "you can only quote the last post" feature that Jason set up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 And good points IlliniBob, guys can definately get around walks and become a dominating MLB pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. 91 pitches in 5 innings in his second major league start is proof of absolutely nothing. Rich Harden threw 109 pitches in 5 innings versus the Sox. I suppose that means he has no business pitching for the A's also. Cotts went 5 2/3 innings, K'ed 6, walked 2, posted a WHIP of 1.23, and struck out ARod twice. While I'm not ready to put him in Cooperstown just yet, I'm not going to point to his pitch count and say he doesn't belong. He's showed some good things and is certainly no worse than any of our other 5th starter options. Check out results and tell me im wrong again. Go ahead. The guy couldnt stop walking guys in the minors, it was obvious what would happen with the big club. OK, you're wrong, again. I said that his pitch count demonstrates nothing concerning his ability to pitch in the MLB. You said it did. I think you're wrong. If you say he walks too many men, I can't argue with that. But...plenty of pitchers are successful while walking too many guys. Cotts walked 56 in 106.3 innings, for 4.74/9 innings. Al Leiter is walking 5.54 batters/9 innings. Kerry Wood 4.44, Russ Ortiz 4.23, Hideo Nomo 4.08. I'm not saying Cotts is as good as these guys YET, but he's shown in the minors that he can pitch. Would we rather that those walks were singles or doubles? At least his walk total would be low then, right? By the way, Danny Wright, who seems to be everyone's darling now, is also walking 4.74/9. Bottom line is that Cotts had a very servicable outing his last time out, especially for a fifth starter, and deserves another one. If he walks 7 in 4 innings, perhaps he should go back down until next season, but if he puts up another 6 innings with 3 runs and 3 walks, keep him around. Whatever happened to the "you can only quote the last post" feature that Jason set up? It doesn't work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Sorry about that. I've tried editing out the long chain of quotes, but end up mucking it up beyond recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Any one else have a problem with Manuel having Cotts come out for the sixth inning? He finished the fifth with the lead and had thrown somewhere around 95 pitches. Don't you pat him on the back and say way to go, build on this and let the pen save your first major league win? Then he takes him out with 2 outs in the sixth after they tie it up! Torborg and many other managers would have let Cotts leave the game with a positive vibe. Hind sight is 20-20. If Cotts could have gotten through the sixth, he would have had a quality start if I remember things correctly. That would have bolstered him up a bit also. Also, with Colon's lousy outing, JM probably needed as much from Cotts as he could get, to save the bullpen. There are always other things the manager has to take into consideration besides what appears on the surface of an issue. Just a couple of thoughts thrown your way, not critcism. I said at the end of the 5th, knowing he was at 91 pitches, that he should have been done. I think that would have been the best scenario for him and wish they would have done that, but I don't think it is a particularly bad decision to leave him in. He had a 1-2-3 inning in the 5th, if I recall. 91 pitches in 5 innings is just further evidence that Cotts just isnt ready to pitch in the major leagues. And that was before his "bad" inning. 91 pitches in 5 innings in his second major league start is proof of absolutely nothing. Rich Harden threw 109 pitches in 5 innings versus the Sox. I suppose that means he has no business pitching for the A's also. Cotts went 5 2/3 innings, K'ed 6, walked 2, posted a WHIP of 1.23, and struck out ARod twice. While I'm not ready to put him in Cooperstown just yet, I'm not going to point to his pitch count and say he doesn't belong. He's showed some good things and is certainly no worse than any of our other 5th starter options. Check out results and tell me im wrong again. Go ahead. The guy couldnt stop walking guys in the minors, it was obvious what would happen with the big club. OK, you're wrong, again. I said that his pitch count demonstrates nothing concerning his ability to pitch in the MLB. You said it did. I think you're wrong. If you say he walks too many men, I can't argue with that. But...plenty of pitchers are successful while walking too many guys. Cotts walked 56 in 106.3 innings in Birmingham, for 4.74/9 innings. Al Leiter is walking 5.54 batters/9 innings. Kerry Wood 4.44, Russ Ortiz 4.23, Hideo Nomo 4.08. I'm not saying Cotts is as good as these guys YET, but he's shown in the minors that he can pitch. Would we rather that those walks were singles or doubles? At least his walk total would be low then, right? By the way, Danny Wright, who seems to be everyone's darling now, is also walking 4.74/9. Bottom line is that Cotts had a very servicable outing his last time out, especially for a fifth starter, and deserves another one. If he walks 7 in 4 innings, perhaps he should go back down until next season, but if he puts up another 6 innings with 3 runs and 3 walks, keep him around. If you took your head out of your ass for one moment you would have read that i said its FURTHER EVIDENCE, not all telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I took it out long enough to note that it is not evidence. Not the only evidence. Not all the evidence. Not "further evidence". All it tells us is how many pitches he threw. Nothing more, nothing less. Now excuse me while I redeposit my head. Let me know when you take the time to point out more meaningless things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I took it out long enough to note that it is not evidence. Not the only evidence. Not all the evidence. Not "further evidence". All it tells us is how many pitches he threw. Nothing more, nothing less. Now excuse me while I redeposit my head. Let me know when you take the time to point out more meaningless things. You add all the factors up and it is evidence. Indicators, whatever you want to call it. You know it, you just feel like arguing. The numbers dont support Cotts being ready for major league batters. He might as well stay up as we are calling up several on September 1, but he wasnt and isnt ready. I said that before he came up, and nothing has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 You tell me to take my head out of my ass, and I'm the one who wants to argue??? You said he wasn't ready for the majors, and despite a solid outing last time out, you point to his pitch count as "further evidence" that he's not ready, i.e. you're right. All I did was call bulls*** on that. Say walking 6 in 3 innings is evidence, s***, how can I argue with that? I can't. But I say his last outing was a nice rebound and he just might prove you wrong. 67 of his 109 pitches last outing were strikes, a very respectable ratio. If his pitch count were high because he was throwing 3 balls to every hitter, you may be onto something, but that wasn't the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 You tell me to take my head out of my ass, and I'm the one who wants to argue??? You said he wasn't ready for the majors, and despite a solid outing last time out, you point to his pitch count as "further evidence" that he's not ready, i.e. you're right. All I did was call bulls*** on that. Say walking 6 in 3 innings is evidence, s***, how can I argue with that? I can't. But I say his last outing was a nice rebound and he just might prove you wrong. 67 of his 109 pitches last outing were strikes, a very respectable ratio. If his pitch count were high because he was throwing 3 balls to every hitter, you may be onto something, but that wasn't the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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