Orphans at our door

[Balta1701]

As I've read the numbers the negative income tax rate includes the employer contribution. Basically the employee winds up with what the employer sent in.

 

Most of who we call undocumented use fraudulent social security numbers. Most of the illegal workers are not working for cash. Which by the way happens a lot for retired people trying to circumvent social security and other pension rules. When someone applies for a job and has the necessary paperwork, it is hard to find fault in the human resource department. The worker avoids filing a return because two returns on the same account sends up flags and is more traceable. I am told there are even people who will "lend" their social security number to someone and file the taxes as if they worked the job. They add social security wages and quarters to their retirement benefits, and pick up the refund.

 

Our immigration system is set up to hire $75,000 workers, not minimum wage workers. We don't mind when someone comes here and takes a high paying job but they damn well better hire an American to be their gardener or nanny.

Can you back up the claim "Most"? Because I would have guessed it was actually a very small fraction of them.

 

Oh, and our immigration system hates $75k workers too.

[mr_genius]

I just want to say that this whole mess at the border actually is almost entirely Bush's fault.

[Texsox]

Can you back up the claim "Most"? Because I would have guessed it was actually a very small fraction of them.

 

Oh, and our immigration system hates $75k workers too.

 

I was speaking based on "people talk, you hear things" but here are a couple links that may be proof.

 

http://cis.org/IdentityTheft

 

75% or so according to this source.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/am...ed=all&_r=0

 

Dated I know

 

Illegal immigrants make up nearly one of every 20 workers in the United States, according to estimates by the Pew Hispanic Center, and most are working under fraudulent Social Security numbers, which can be bought in any immigrant community or in Mexico.

 

An article on how this actually helps SS

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0090202673.html

The Social Security actuaries estimate that two-thirds of unauthorized immigrant workers, or 5.6 million people, were paying into the system in 2007. Roughly half used a Social Security number tied to an invented name or one that belonged to someone else. Of the rest, many got legal cards when they entered the country under a temporary work visa. They stayed illegally after their visas expired.

[Balta1701]

That is much, much higher than I'd have intuited.

[Texsox]

That is much, much higher than I'd have intuited.

 

And it is a key reason why I always objected to the "fry the employer" approach. Detecting an illegal worker isn't as easy as it sounds. Plus. many have been here for decades. It is also a reason why the government loves illegals from a budget standpoint. Despite what most people believe they are less likely to apply for any benefits. All the input, non of the output.

[cabiness42]

And it is a key reason why I always objected to the "fry the employer" approach. Detecting an illegal worker isn't as easy as it sounds. Plus. many have been here for decades. It is also a reason why the government loves illegals from a budget standpoint. Despite what most people believe they are less likely to apply for any benefits. All the input, non of the output.

 

There is a big difference between 1) Employer who hires illegals who have obtained fake SSN, etc and 2) Employer who knowingly hires illegals by not even asking for a SSN and paying them under the table.

 

1) needs some training on how to spot fake documents and then fines for repeat offenses

 

2) needs prison time

[Texsox]

We don't punish businesses who accept a forged $20. Once we begin sorting which document they should have caught and which one they shouldn't the law becomes too murky. Plus with birth certificates there are no standards. Every location has a different design. Companies who have jobs that no one else wants, migrant farm jobs, processing sheds, basically all of ag, are always caught with more illegals. There are often times the only ones applying.

[Balta1701]

We don't punish businesses who accept a forged $20. Once we begin sorting which document they should have caught and which one they shouldn't the law becomes too murky. Plus with birth certificates there are no standards. Every location has a different design. Companies who have jobs that no one else wants, migrant farm jobs, processing sheds, basically all of ag, are always caught with more illegals. There are often times the only ones applying.

Who is out the $20? Isn't it the business that accepted it?

[southsider2k5]

We don't punish businesses who accept a forged $20. Once we begin sorting which document they should have caught and which one they shouldn't the law becomes too murky. Plus with birth certificates there are no standards. Every location has a different design. Companies who have jobs that no one else wants, migrant farm jobs, processing sheds, basically all of ag, are always caught with more illegals. There are often times the only ones applying.

 

They lose the $20.

 

If they are believed to be intentionally passing off fake $20, they get prosecuted.

[Jenksismyhero]

“For the president to set aside all of these funds for immigrants and [have] forsaken the African-American community, I think that’s a disgrace,” the man told the blog Rebel Pundit. “He will go down as the worst president ever elected. Bill Clinton was the African-American president.”

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/j.../#ixzz37TqbJWbS

 

 

[StrangeSox]

What

[Texsox]

They lose the $20.

 

If they are believed to be intentionally passing off fake $20, they get prosecuted.

 

So they lose the employee. My point it many employers would be victims here not criminals. I believe we need to be careful before punishing a business for being fooled by fake documents.

[mr_genius]

My point it many employers would be victims here not criminals.

 

No, they would be the criminals.

[Balta1701]

No, they would be the criminals.

Well you have soundly refuted in detail so many of Tex's points its hard to know what to think now.

[mr_genius]

Well you have soundly refuted in detail so many of Tex's points its hard to know what to think now.

 

some times the most elegant solution has the least syntax.

[Texsox]

No, they would be the criminals.

 

For being fooled by a forgery? When have we ever convicted someone of being fooled by the forgery?

[Texsox]

Great summary of the current situation

[mr_genius]

For being fooled by a forgery? When have we ever convicted someone of being fooled by the forgery?

 

well, if they are using an illegal workforce they should be arrested and put on trial. if they were really 'fooled' use that as a defense. just like if a drug dealer said they thought they were buying baby powder, but it ended up be cocaine - because they were 'fooled'. OK, maybe you were 'fooled', let the jury decide.

[EvilMonkey]

well, if they are using an illegal workforce they should be arrested and put on trial. if they were really 'fooled' use that as a defense. just like if a drug dealer said they thought they were buying baby powder, but it ended up be cocaine - because they were 'fooled'. OK, maybe you were 'fooled', let the jury decide.

OK, so when they present a real SS card but the number belongs to someone else, you want to jail them for that as well> I am all for screwing employers than knowingly hire illegals, however there has to be some discretion here. I have hired enough people in my time that I have seen a few fake SS cards and even a few DL's that looked pretty suspicious. I have even had one I thought was legit come back to me as not when I used the fax-check thing we had to do to verify the person. It isn't as cut and dry as you may like it to be.

[Balta1701]

Between five and ten migrant children have been killed since February after the United States deported them back to Honduras, a morgue director told the Los Angeles Times.

Success!

[Texsox]

OK, so when they present a real SS card but the number belongs to someone else, you want to jail them for that as well> I am all for screwing employers than knowingly hire illegals, however there has to be some discretion here. I have hired enough people in my time that I have seen a few fake SS cards and even a few DL's that looked pretty suspicious. I have even had one I thought was legit come back to me as not when I used the fax-check thing we had to do to verify the person. It isn't as cut and dry as you may like it to be.

 

I thought I had already commented. This is one area that Dems and Reps who have ever hired a workforce agree. Short of DNA tests there isn't a foolproof system. And most small business owners can't be expected to be experts on the tens of thousands of different birth certificates out there.

[EvilMonkey]

I thought I had already commented. This is one area that Dems and Reps who have ever hired a workforce agree. Short of DNA tests there isn't a foolproof system. And most small business owners can't be expected to be experts on the tens of thousands of different birth certificates out there.

Correct. But there ARE some where you just KNOW they are fake. If Illinois or Wyoming is spelled wrong on the DL, it is probably fake.