Official 2008-2009 NBA Thread

[lostfan]

To my knowledge, Brand's had one major injury, which was last year. I can't recall anything before that.

 

But yeah Brand is a complete 20-10 PF... I like Gooden, but cmon. They're not in the same class.

[rangercal]

ok... so you guys would sell the farm to get maybe +5-6 in pts and + 1 rebounds per game? For a player who makes more than twice the salary as gooden and is a few years older?

 

If you check out our PF stats

 

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CHI5.HTM

 

 

PF was our strongest position!

 

 

I can think of 5-6 big names you go after before Brand.

 

 

Geez, you guys are really overrating brand.

 

 

Give me the 23 year old Carmelo any day of the week.

[rangercal]

To my knowledge, Brand's had one major injury, which was last year. I can't recall anything before that.

 

But yeah Brand is a complete 20-10 PF... I like Gooden, but cmon. They're not in the same class.

 

I don't think anyone is saying they are in the same class. But why take on 9 MIL MORE in salary and give up 3-4 pieces for a position we are fine at? I can see if we were to package 3-4 of our former top 10 picks to get a bigger shooting Guard(maybe Tmac) or a star small forward, but a power forward? No Thanks.

Edited May 22, 2008 by rangercal

[lostfan]

I don't think anyone is saying they are in the same class. But why take on 9 MIL MORE in salary and give up 3-4 pieces for a position we are fine at? I can see if we were to package 3-4 of our former top 10 picks to get a bigger shooting Guard(maybe Tmac) or a star small forward, but a power forward? No Thanks.

You're jumping to some pretty wild conclusions here... all I said was "what does it mean" not "gee I really hope the Bulls get Brand back" (although I really like Brand and would really like him if he was here... but I never said that in this thread).

[rangercal]

You're jumping to some pretty wild conclusions here... all I said was "what does it mean" not "gee I really hope the Bulls get Brand back" (although I really like Brand and would really like him if he was here... but I never said that in this thread).

sorry , misunderstood you. I did not want you to think that I was saying Gooden = Brand.

[Balta1701]

I'm not disagreeing, but what you said doesn't really address the big thing everyone's worried about with Rose. The Hornets don't just have Paul, they have Paul and West. The Jazz don't just have Williams, they have Williams and Boozer. Why is the Paul/Williams side more important than the West/Boozer side?

 

Again, I'm split on this. But I do think it's a legit question.

FWIW, there have been more than a few people who have said that Luol Deng could well be a David West type player. Similar "TSP" type numbers, similar games, etc.

[lostfan]

Also, those PER stats and whatnot are probably misleading considering Joe Smith played for us for half the season, and was probably the most consistent player.

[lostfan]

sorry , misunderstood you. I did not want you to think that I was saying Gooden = Brand.

Fair enough.

 

I do think the team would be better, especially offensively, with a Brand-Deng frontcourt than a Nocioni/Gooden-Deng frontcourt. The team would be much more balanced and consistent.

[rangercal]

Fair enough.

 

I do think the team would be better, especially offensively, with a Brand-Deng frontcourt than a Nocioni/Gooden-Deng frontcourt. The team would be much more balanced and consistent.

Obviously I agree. I was only making the argument that we should address something else first.

I would like to see a deal for brand if

 

1. Nothing else is available

and/or

2. We get him for the right price. Meaning, It would really hurt to lose Deng in a deal for Brand.

[Steve9347]

Give me the 23 year old Carmelo any day of the week.

Well, no s*** give me Melo, but what's it going to cost? I'm sure they'd want the pick. I don't think Deng + Tyrus + change will net you what you want, and they sure as hell don't want Gordon with Smith and Iverson on the roster.

[ZoomSlowik]

Also, those PER stats and whatnot are probably misleading considering Joe Smith played for us for half the season, and was probably the most consistent player.

 

That's a big one right there, Smith was very good for us for the first part of the season, that and Gooden's stats look a lot better than his actual contributions. We still don't have one guy I'd call a comfortably above average post player and none of them are complete players. Tyrus and Noah can't score and Gooden can't defend.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say we can get Brand for Hinrich and one of Gooden/Nocioni/Thomas (maybe even 2 if it has to be), and we wouldn't miss any of them. Carmelo Anthony on the other hand would minimally cost us Deng, and probably 2 or 3 more pieces.

[Steve9347]

Well, no s*** give me Melo, but what's it going to cost? I'm sure they'd want the pick. I don't think Deng + Tyrus + change will net you what you want, and they sure as hell don't want Gordon with Smith and Iverson on the roster.

Deng + Kirk + Tyrus?

 

Maybe...

 

If you could work something like

 

Deng

Kirk

Tyrus

1st rounder

 

for

 

Melo

Camby

 

That'd obviously be ridiculous... leaving us with Camby/Noah - Gooden/Noah - Melo - Gordon/Hughes - Rose

[rangercal]

That's a big one right there, Smith was very good for us for the first part of the season, that and Gooden's stats look a lot better than his actual contributions. We still don't have one guy I'd call a comfortably above average post player and none of them are complete players. Tyrus and Noah can't score and Gooden can't defend.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say we can get Brand for Hinrich and one of Gooden/Nocioni/Thomas (maybe even 2 if it has to be), and we wouldn't miss any of them. Carmelo Anthony on the other hand would minimally cost us Deng, and probably 2 or 3 more pieces.

 

If that's the case, I'm all for it. I would trade a lot for Carmelo, including deng (obviously because he replaces him in the lineup). That would be the perfect way to consolidate the roster.

[rangercal]

Well, no s*** give me Melo, but what's it going to cost? I'm sure they'd want the pick. I don't think Deng + Tyrus + change will net you what you want, and they sure as hell don't want Gordon with Smith and Iverson on the roster.

 

I think we can compete with what ever NJ was offering (without giving up the pick)

[rangercal]

Deng + Kirk + Tyrus?

 

Maybe...

 

If you could work something like

 

Deng

Kirk

Tyrus

1st rounder

 

for

 

Melo

Camby

 

That'd obviously be ridiculous... leaving us with Camby/Noah - Gooden/Noah - Melo - Gordon/Hughes - Rose

 

If Pax pulled that Deal off, I would start a parade.

[lostfan]

Obviously I agree. I was only making the argument that we should address something else first.

I would like to see a deal for brand if

 

1. Nothing else is available

and/or

2. We get him for the right price. Meaning, It would really hurt to lose Deng in a deal for Brand.

Losing Deng would defeat the purpose of getting Brand IMO.

[ZoomSlowik]

Losing Deng would defeat the purpose of getting Brand IMO.

 

Clearly it would, I don't think it'd come to that though. Brand's value on the market is incredibly low right now, partially because of the injury and partially because he can opt out this year or become a FA the year after that. There's probably a very good chance the Clippers won't pony up the cash to keep him, so they could very easily deal him for whatever they can get now. Plus I would think if he went to a team that looks like they can compete like the Bulls you can negotiate an extra year or two on the deal. There aren't a whole lot of teams I could think of that'd be real threats to top that...

 

Cleveland- plenty of expiring money (Sczcerbiak is the big one, also Jones and Smith), but don't really have talent to send back unless they're thrilled with Gibson or Varejao. Would have to be a Gasol-type salary dump.

 

Golden State- Would they really give up Baron Davis? I probably wouldn't, especially since Brand isn't really a running-style big.

 

Miami- Something with Marion and/or Haslem? I'd think they'd want to go younger personally, especially since they have #2. Or I suppose if they REALLY don't like Beasley they can send the pick, but that'd be very stupid.

 

New Jersey- Richard Jefferson? Money and talent kinda makes sense, but the Kidd trade again seems to suggest a rebuild. Harris-Carter-Brand is a fairly interesting combo though.

 

Philadelphia- Would they really give up Miller and someone like Louie Williams? I kinda doubt it...

 

Sacramento- If they feel like taking Artest then maybe, but that seems unlikely.

 

Toronto- This one would be interesting. TJ Ford looks expendable, and if they get another big Bargnani is suddenly less interesting to them as well. Again though, they run a lot, and neither Brand or Bosh is really a center.

 

Washington- Maybe. Sign and trade of Arenas or Jamison, but they can't do that until after the draft.

Edited May 22, 2008 by ZoomSlowik

[SleepyWhiteSox]

As much as I absolutely luv my Blue Demons, I feel that the 1981 Draft is the closest similar situation to this year. Now, Aguirre was an absolute beast scoring over 20 ppg throughout his 13-year career with a 29.5 ppg season too, but who would you rather have? (Don't say tom chambers)

[ZoomSlowik]

Almost forgot, the Bulls also have a $5.2 mil trade exemption from dealing Smith to Cleveland, so that's a very useful salary-filler in an attempt to get someone like Brand.

[ZoomSlowik]

As much as I absolutely luv my Blue Demons, I feel that the 1981 Draft is the closest similar situation to this year. Now, Aguirre was an absolute beast scoring over 20 ppg throughout his 13-year career with a 29.5 ppg season too, but who would you rather have? (Don't say tom chambers)

 

I can see the point there, but Aguirre was a SG, that's not quite the same thing as a 6'9" 240 lb combo forward that might be able to put up 25 and 10.

[RockRaines]

They just have to take Rose. Leader, new era at PG, floor general, playmaker, makes bigs better. They just have to.

[Steve9347]

They just have to take Rose. Leader, new era at PG, floor general, playmaker, makes bigs better. They just have to.

They will, just listen to this... Paxson's rather lengthly interview with Chad Ford. He dances around but you can tell that Rose is his man...

[Balta1701]

They will, just listen to this... Paxson's rather lengthly interview with Chad Ford. He dances around but you can tell that Rose is his man...

I'm hoping so...but still, I want him to do his due diligence. Work both out, interview both a couple times, call around for trades, see if someone might have a PG on the block that you could get for Tyrus/Deng and one of your big contracts (Baron Davis?) and see if there's a better way to do things.

 

I think the right move WITH THIS EXACT ROSTER is Rose. But that doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I can see the point there, but Aguirre was a SG, that's not quite the same thing as a 6'9" 240 lb combo forward that might be able to put up 25 and 10.

 

Mark Aguirre was a 6'6" 230 lb forward...

[daa84]

They will, just listen to this... Paxson's rather lengthly interview with Chad Ford. He dances around but you can tell that Rose is his man...

pax could just be putting up a smoke screen knowing that miami wants rose...drive up the price and maybe drop to 2 and take beasley? i doubt it

 

this is a great article and is how i feel

 

http://www1.naismithlives.com/node/165

 

Michael Beasley or Derrick Rose?

 

Should the first pick in the NBA Draft be the Kansas State forward with a resume more impressive than Kevin Durant’s or the purest of pure point guards from Memphis?

 

The debate goes on in schools, offices, and dinner tables all over the country. However, Rose wasn’t even in the conversation prior to March. Sure, he was projected to go second overall, but even that wasn’t a given. Some favored Indiana’s Eric Gordon, Arizona’s Jerryd Bayless, or even Italian sensation Danilo Gallinari. As for the post of first overall, there was no competition. It was all Beasley’s.

 

Rose’s performance in the NCAA Tournament changed all that.

 

But this wasn’t a phenomenon. It actually happens every year.

 

A player steamrolls his way through the Big Dance, attracting accolades and, more importantly, seemingly endless exposure along the way. In turn, that player’s draft stock in the public’s view (and, to be fair, in the eyes of a few scouts) skyrockets. After all, the reasoning goes, not only did this player lift his team to extraordinary heights, but he did it against the greatest competition and on the grandest stage.

 

Just check out the previous five seasons…

 

Back in 2003, a freshman named Carmelo Anthony utilized a dazzling arsenal of offensive weapons to carry his Syracuse team to a national championship. It was the first time since Villanova in 1985 that a team unranked in the AP’s preseason poll cut down the nets at the end of the season. And, of course, Anthony received all the credit. Key components to their title run, including the fact that the Orangemen played four of their six tourney games against Big XII teams unfamiliar with zone defenses, Gerry McNamara’s six three-pointers in the first half of the championship game, and late defensive heroics by Hakim Warrick became afterthoughts. Anthony was the beloved frosh who could do no wrong and it wasn’t long before there was a public outcry for Anthony to go before LeBron James in the upcoming NBA Draft.

 

Emeka Okafor became another Crest-smiling leader of a title-team the following season. The UConn center imposed his defensive will on opponents, while charming the media with his etiquette and humility. Majoring in finance didn’t hurt his public relations cause either. Again, there was public discourse over who should be the next top pick in the draft, Okafor or Dwight Howard.

 

In 2005, Sean May reaped the tourney’s benefits. The UNC star scored 26 points in the title game victory over Illinois. It was the same amount his father, Scott, scored in Indiana’s national championship game in 1976 and, in the process, the son won over the public.

 

Two seasons ago, Joakim Noah blazed through March Madness, earning Most Outstanding Player honors, after showing a penchant for blocking shots and winking at cheerleaders. Like May before him, Noah was the son of a celebrity, only much more charismatic, witty, and joyous. The crowd at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis ate him up, as did many other followers of college basketball. His dominance convinced fans he would surely be the draft’s top selection.

 

A handful of players shared the honor of Most Hyped last year. Corey Brewer, Al Horford, Greg Oden, and Mike Conley were brilliant, yet they were also the beneficiaries of a suddenly fickle fan-base who concluded that Noah was overrated and appeared to take joy in picking his game apart.

 

And, of course, the 2008 NCAA Tournament was no different.

 

While Beasley was sent home by Wisconsin after just two tourney games, Rose played in six. Along the way, the Memphis maestro racked up averages of over 20 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game, to go along with one trophy for being Most Outstanding Player of the South Region. Not to mention the countless articles penned on his behalf or the talking heads gushing over his talent night after night after night.

 

Now Rose is the hottest prospect on the planet. And Beasley is, well, forgotten.

 

Doesn’t anyone recall Beasley’s three 40-point games? What about his 28 double-doubles? The last Division I player to have that many in a single season was Tim Duncan in 1996-97. Even in his two NCAA Tournament games, Beasley averaged 23 points and 12 boards a game.

 

But numbers are just half the story. Beasley was college basketball’s most dominant force. A stronger Carmelo Anthony. A tougher Kevin Durant. A modern-day, left-handed Danny Manning.

 

Beasley treated his opponents as if they were his little brothers, merely getting in the way. He shot over them, drove past them, and dunked on them.

 

Prior to his arrival in Manhattan, Kansas, Beasley was criticized for being too passive. Did he seem lackadaisical when he ripped apart Baylor, an eventual tourney-team, for 44 points and 13 rebounds? Was his 30-point, 15-rebound performance against Texas played without passion?

 

Rose has the perfect demeanor for a point guard. He is poised and stoic. His force of will alone led Memphis to some of their most impressive wins during a season when they set an NCAA-record with 38 of them. He is strong, quick, and confident. He can score when he wants, but he looks to distribute first. And, in the NCAA Tournament, he dismantled some of the nation’s most talented perimeter players, including Michigan State’s Drew Neitzel, D.J. Augustin of Texas, and UCLA’s Darren Collison.

 

But Rose isn’t flawless. He struggled through growing pains, yet his Tiger team was so talented that they won big even when he disappeared. Which was more often than you might think. He scored seven points or less in nine games and Memphis won all of them. In the Conference USA Tournament final, Rose finished with just four points and four assists. Memphis still won by 26.

 

The most common reasoning for taking Rose over Beasley is that point guards are a rare breed. Rose cheerleaders say that when a special lead guard comes along, you’ve got to jump on him. The argument has some merit and, of course, the prevailing example is the 2005 NBA Draft, during which Andrew Bogut and Marvin Williams were taken before Deron Williams and Chris Paul.

 

However, even Beasley‘s strongest detractors would admit that he is capable of one day averaging at least 22 points and 10 rebounds a game in the league. How common is that? There isn’t one NBA player who accomplished that feat this season.

 

For all of Rose’s greatness, Beasley is the best available player in this year’s NBA Draft. The NCAA Tournament may have hid that fact from us, mostly because Rose has been in our collective conscious and in our newspapers on a daily basis, while Beasley hasn’t been seen since March 22nd. Out of sight. Out of mind.

 

Of course, Beasley also did the one thing this season that Rose couldn’t.

 

He beat Kansas.