NUKE_CLEVELAND

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15020846/?GT1=8506 You think its bad when the government tries to wiretap terrorists without a warrant? Where is the outcry when local governments try to tell you what you can and can't serve in a restaurant? This is something that is going to affect people's daily lives more than anything the feds are trying to do and not a peep.

QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Sep 27, 2006 -> 02:54 PM) Dow misses the record by 34, end up 20 above. I don't even want to know what NASDAQ's all-time high was. LOL! Thats why I left it out. If I remember correctly it was 5048 or something like that on a closing basis.

QUOTE(AbeFroman @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 06:24 PM) Hey, its a post on a message board. Millions of pages have been written on the fall of the soviet union. I didn't write anything about cripling soviet beaurcracy either... doesn't mean it didn't have an effect (which it obviously did). Moreover, I'd say I covered the price of capital goods transitively in my section on open competition's effect on consumer prices and the rewards of innovation. As for the Soviet's inability to feed themselves, thats a bit of a stretch.... It wasn't Ethiopia. What the Russian market craved was US and Western consumer goods; like Levi's, McDonalds, etc. And that was my point to begin with. and I would dispute you that Reagan used "markets to undermine the Soviet system." Markets were already in place. The west was booming and would have boomed with or without Reagan. Capitalism will always defeat Communism. It's economic capacity was growing exponentially while the USSR was probably decreasing its national economic output. (As an aside, I'd love to discuss the effects of the Reagan Tax cuts of 81 and 86... There's much to be discussed, and I would probably surprise you with my opinions... but that's for a different thread). I will agree that Reagan's policy of dumping money into the military in an effort to force the Soviets to do the same probably accelerated the fall of the soviet union... so did the tax cuts of 81 and 86. (And btw, the Soviets were incredibly stupid to try and keep up with us militarily... talk about ego) But at what cost? Today we have massive national debt. The USSR was going to fail anyway... It was inevitable. So why mortgage our whole future building a military for the sake of causing the Russians to build up theirs? It is HIGHLY disengenious to say that one person or one policy cause the soviets to collapse. East vs. West was a battle of Capitalism v. Communism. Its institutional... So then Lech Walesa was "HIGHLY" disingenuous? He seems to think Poland owes their freedom to Reagan. Is he just another right wing idiot? http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/fe...ml?id=110005204 Or Czech dissidents behind the Iron Curtain? Aww what the hell do they know, they only spent decades under the thumb of the Soviets. http://www.radio.cz/en/article/54699 The Reagan military buildup, combined with the bleeding the CIA gave them in Afghanistan, combined with colluding with the Saudis to tank the price of oil and drive down that source of revenue for them eliminated the greatest threat to our safety that ever existed. To sit there and assert, from pure conjecture and theory's, that "oh they were going to fall apart anyway" is naive at best. Even if it were true, what is another 10 years or so of Soviet terror dominating Eastern Europe? What's another 10 years living with tens of thousands of nukes targeted at our country?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 27, 2006 -> 09:47 AM) Dow made another top at 11717 at about 10:35 Dow has 30 stocks in it. I'll be a lot more impressed when the S & P makes an all time high. That's still like 200 points off.

QUOTE(AbeFroman @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 02:11 PM) Levi's Jeans had twice as much to do with causing the collapse of the Soviet Union than anything any president did... ...............uhh............ no.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 12:02 PM) Actually, I would say that he was the one both willing to negotiate with the Soviets and with the domestic credibility to do so. I can't recall him actually attacking the soviets militarily. No. They got the Afghans to do it for them. He also bankrupted their economy with the 1-2 punch of the arms buildup and colluding with the Saudis to tank the price of oil.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 11:41 AM) Of course we know the only real Saints are Republicans . . . Shall we toss Reagan pause while the GOP faithful bow, remove their hats, and offer a moment of silnce> into the President as saint discussion? Clinton pales in comparision to the biggest spender and appeaser we've ever seen. Now that I have paid proper respect to the Gipper........ Appeaser? Was he the one that said the Soviets couldn't be defeated? Was he the one that said we should try to co-exist with communisim instead of trying to defeat it? ........ ...........not going to hold my breath waiting for an answer.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 10:46 AM) I guess this has sort of been mentioned, but why aren't more people taking Clinton to task for pushing blame off on someone else? Anytime this has been done by repubs in the last 6 years, I have never heard the end of it, yet Bill Clinton does it, and the focus is actually on what he said, instead of his debate techniques... Why is that? Because Clinton is a saint to the leftist mainstream media and Bush is not.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 08:58 AM) Show me an instance where the wiretapping (not any wiretapping, but the kind argued on this board as being questionable) did anything to make this country safer. And it never ceases to amaze me how many people are so spoiled by their freedoms living in the U.S. that they use the "I have nothing to hide" argument when this administration chips slowly away at the Constitution. Ironically, it is often these same people who yell and scream that we must vigorously defend our freedoms at any cost... when they want to go to war with a country that represents zero danger to us. I guess freedom is in the eye of the beholder. Riddle me this NSS. How can you demonstrably show the effectiveness of a classified program? You cant. You have to trust the government that they are using it properly. Are there going to be abuses? Of course, but I believe that they have been and will be so few and far between, in spite of all the "sky is falling" leftists rantings, that it simply does not warrant taking this tool out of the governments tool box.

QUOTE(Rex Kicka** @ Sep 26, 2006 -> 08:21 AM) The Washington Post Bravo. Implement it now.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 11:26 PM) Hell ya he needs one. I'll go a step further. He deserves one. That man has taken enough beatings/surgeries/breaks in bones trying to help that team make it this year. I wouldn't mind big Frank winning another eigher. Two of the key puzzles to our championship last season are going back to the playoffs as we are sitting home. Way to say we miss you. Forget the Big Skirt. LET AROW WIN ANOTHER ONE!!!!!!!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,215779,00.html Condi fires back on Slick Willie.

QUOTE(longshot7 @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 01:19 PM) I will entirely blame the Bush administration, for failing to respond to the Cole attack, blowing off Richard Clarke, ignoring the PDB about "Bin Laden determined to attack in America", reading "My Pet Goat" for 10 minutes after the attacks happened, failing to get Bin Laden in Tora Bora - their failure list grows everyday..... ..........and you will be entirely wrong.

QUOTE(AbeFroman @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 08:37 AM) I really don't want to read any of the bickering on the previous two pages of posts. Bill Clinton is kinda a hero of mine... so I want to say this: Blaming anyone for not doing enough for 9/11 is partisan hackery. Stop it. Nobody understood or appreciated the threat of Al-Queda attack. If they had, we would have invaded Afganistan in 1992 or 2000 when either Bush or Clinton got into office. This is the bullsh*t that cheapens the political process and detracts from legitimate discussions on salient political issues. I am Dem, and my party is just as guilty (probably more so) than the Republicans. I hate it... I wish they would avoid talking about so-called "pre-9/11 failures" except in an effort to constructively improve our intelligence gathering industry. The reason I like to attack Clinton so much is becuase of all he did to de-construct that very same intelligence gathering industry. Its like I said, I would be glad to agree with you that Clinton was a good president if he had done more about the gathering terrorist threat than lob a few bombs into empty training camps.

QUOTE(samclemens @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 07:28 AM) you cant draw parallels between islamic terrorists and american soldiers. i dont think it works because you only have one event brought on by mcveigh, and three brought on by islamic terrorists. the warning signs were clear and clinton was incompetant. he had 8 years and bush had 8 months- all im saying is apportion the blame accordingly. he had the WTC bombing in '93, knew bin laden was a suspect by '95, and a year later personally took a pass at taking possession of him or at least questioning him. no, that might offend some muslims. someone above said he responded to the embassy bombings, how? i dont remember anything, nothing drastic. did we even make an arrest? I wish the reporter would have nailed his ass on his dismantling of the CIA and Military during the 90's. That contributed to 9/11 just as much as anything.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 06:57 AM) The whole Swift Boat thing left me with a very tainted view of these. When even Veterans don't have a problem ripping on the awards, I guess John Q. Public shouldn't have that great of a view. You should have a problem with his legiative record, politically y'all are 180% apart. His actions after the war are a bit more complex. I remember my Dad, a Vet of Korea and a conservative, saying the only anti-War protesters he respected where the guys who got shot at and earned the right to protest. That had an affect on me. I believe Kerry earned his free speech rights, while others have them given to him. I agree that if you've been shot at then you deserve a voice protesting the war. My issue with him is that he lied about what went on over there ( read about the Winter Soldier testimony given to Congress in 1971 ) and disgraced those he served with.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 06:43 AM) And that .0000000000000001% time just happened to be a guy running for President? Wow, what are the odds? I never laid question to whether Kerry's war wounds were fake or not. My biggest problem with him is his legislative record and most of all, his conduct immediately after the war.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 06:41 AM) At that point in time, the man was innocent. While there are a few people who would support a US murder spree, I doubt it would be good for us in the long run. Innocent? He had a MAJOR hand in the "Blackhawk Down" brawl in Mogadishu. That alone should have warranted a cruise missile up the ass or a snipers bullet to the noodle.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 24, 2006 -> 08:24 PM) If Clinton had started yelling Bin Laden, Bin Laden, Rush and his ditto heads would have been screaming tail wagging the dog, he wants us to forget about Monica. How about the entire GOP fixating on a blow job instead of pushing for Bin Laden? While they were blowing millions on Ken Star, maybe they could have also worked towards anti terrorism? There are briefings for all the key leaders for both parties. Our political climate contributed to this for certain, but no one could forsee this event. Of course the GOP faithful will blame Bush if an as yet to be identified terrorist blows something up anytime in the next 3 years? If Clinton had actually whacked Bin Laden then it would have been all good and he would have cemented his credentials as a terrorist fighter. Instead, he let the pussy whipped lawyers talk him out of it and lobbed a few cruise missiles at empty training camps. If he was actually willing to get his hands dirty fighting terrorism instead of making a token BS attempt to do something he could have told Rush and his friends to f*** off.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 25, 2006 -> 06:19 AM) The Purple Heart is a b.s. award that means nothing in my mind. Guys just make up crap to get them. Whatever dude. That may happen in a very rare instance but 99.999999999999999% of the time the soldier earned it. You want a B.S. award you need look no farther than the bronze star. I had to stand in a ceremony in July of 2003 where a platoon sergeant got one for his service in Iraq. This same platoon sergeant took off and hauled ass the very first time he came under fire. Unless that Bronze Star has a valor device attached to it I dont even want to hear about it.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Sep 24, 2006 -> 01:22 PM) Close the thread. That post trumps anything else that could be made up.

One more reason to tell the Slackhawks to suck it.

I just registered today so hopefully I can liven things up a bit once my account gets the go ahead from the admins.

QUOTE(samclemens @ Sep 24, 2006 -> 02:21 PM) his "heal the world" do-nothing policies towards terrorism are at least a large part of the reason we are where we are today. im sure i'll be crucified for saying this. also, please don't bother slamming fox news, try instead actually adressing what was said in the interview. face it, foxnews is as legitimate as the other mainstream media sources like cnn and msnbc, and chris wallace is as legitimate as any other interviewing reporter. It was funny as hell watching Clinton lose control, then try to pass the blame off onto Bush. Fact is that they had Bin Laden dead in their sights on more than one occasion and they did nothing. "I tried!!!" "I tried!!!" I wonder whether he was talking about getting Bin Laden or satisfying Monica Lewinsky?

QUOTE(Texsox @ Sep 24, 2006 -> 12:54 PM) I have to agree with Nuke on this one. We can't have soldiers picking and choosing which battles to face. When you enlist, you aren't being drafted, you are volunteering. I wouldn't agree with a long tax payer supported stay, but a reasonable sentence and a less than honorable discharge would be appropriate. I find Nuke's final comment ammusing. A schoolyard insult, that should be left in childhood, extends into our military to describe someone, seems so silly in a life or death situation. That was most generous compared to some other comments Ive heard about deserters. It's because of the fact that he ran away from such a situation that he warrants such comtempt.