southsideirish

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 07:23 PM) Ok, lemme go run over and grab the Ellis Island documents from the early 1900s right now... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> However you have to back up your case accuser. I am not the one making claims. You are. Proceed.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 07:20 PM) So your claim is that each and every one came here legally? There are illegal Irish immigrants here today... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Where did I claim that. You claimed the opposite so show me some proof. I am not making the accusations here, you are.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 07:18 PM) Not all. Once quotas were met, it was illegal to enter. I doubt that stopped them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You doubt, or you know for a fact? Let me know and show me some information and the numbers. Thank you.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 07:12 PM) Agreed, but with a caveat. You've twice brought up the 'coffin ships' to make your point, and in my opinion that one point doesn't carry much weight when you take into account that the Mexicans crossing the border take some extreme risks as well. That's all I'm saying. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I did so in order to prove that they have had it hard as well, not to make it look like they had it any harder or worse off than another. Sorry if that is how I made it out to look.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 07:08 PM) A few ponits. Do you guys really believe that if the gov. wanted to end illegal immigration it couldn't have done it long ago? It could end it today. As yourselves why it won't do that. Don't hate the player, hate the game. By the way, plenty of people of ALL nationalities have come into this country legally and illegally and a lot of them brought a lot of s*** people with them too. It's easy to focus on the majority, but what appplies to one applies to all. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Isn't that what we are all saying? I don't see anyone that has not said or has not agreed with this.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:58 PM) Still, they do take substantial risks however they cross the border. They face bandits, deserts, etc. I just think that saying one group face more risk than another is a moot point due to the fact that, generally, none of them had an easy way to go. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I never said one had it easier than the next. I said all of them have it hard. No one should claim racism because it is hard on them. It is the way it is when you come over here with absolutely nothing trying to start a new life. That was my point all along. Someone was trying to claim racism because they are treated poorly and have it hard. Every immigrant group has and has been.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:56 PM) Actually, trucks, stifling railcars and across burning deserts are the most common ways. Nothing fun about any of those. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And they do that because it is illegal correct? Weren't the Irish coming over legally? Hmm, big difference when you are doing it because you are trying to hide and coming over illegally. I guess those are the chances you will take if that is the case.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:52 PM) One point I'll make in response is that Mexicans quite often arrive in 'coffin trucks'. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> YASNY, it happens, but it is not the only way or the most common way. Plus they are doing so illegally, so they have to hide. The Irish were coming here legally.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:41 PM) Sure, but most did. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And your point is what? Do Mexicans need to learn English? Is your point that the Irish didn't have that obstacle? Do the Mexican's have what little money they do have taken away from them upon arrival? Are they told they can't have a job because they are Mexican? Are they forced to join the Army and go fight in a war that they have no idea what it is about as soon as they step foot in this country? Do they have to arrive in "coffin ships"? And these were immigrants arriving here legally. Immigrants that wanted to be here to start a new life. Each nationality had their own struggles. When you come here with nothing, what do you expect? Don't expect everything to be handed to you. Our tax dollars should not go to anything that they need or supply anything for them. You want to point out one obstacle that some didn't have to face. Kudos to you. Now what about the Germans, the Polish, and the Chinese?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:38 PM) Do we prosecute doctors for treating criminals injured in the act? No. Every human being is entitled to his or her human rights. The bill is basically categorizing immigrants as lower forms of human, not worthy to medical treatment when in need. Thats wrong IMO. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I understand what you are trying to say, but the bill is not trying to do that. Maybe that is what it is saying to you, but that is not what it is trying to do. What it is trying to do is to prevent immigration by stopping anyone from dealing with them. If no one will give them a job, money, food, a ride, shelter, medical service, or what have you because they are affraid of going to jail or getting fined a lot of cash, then they have no reason to be here and will have to go back home. It is trying to stop anyone from dealing with them. It is not trying to state, as you have put it, that "immigrants are lower forms of human." That just isn't the case.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:36 PM) How is that flawed? It is respect for human rights. Do you respect every law of the land? Prosecuting doctors for treating people in need of help is just plain wrong IMO. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is flawed thinking right there Rock. If I disrespect a law of the land then I am penalized for it either monetarily or in jail time. If a person is caught here illegally then there should also be a punishment to fit that crime (i.e., being sent back or what have you). Punishing the Dr. for doing his job is not punishing the correct person though.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:24 PM) Talk about fundementally flawed. When someone steps across the border and therefore shows total disrespect for the laws of this land, and then expects the citizens of this land to supply them with aid in any form, that is fundamentally flawed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> YASNY I agree, however you can't prosecute a dr. for doing his job. He took an oath. You just can't do that. That is wrong. If I give a tip to a waitress/waiter that is illegal, can I be prosecuted for giving her/him money? Will I have to ask for everyone's papers? It is a bad bill.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:11 PM) I love the "rite of passage" that is being brought up in argument. "Well back in the civil war days..." Who gives a rats ass. If we were follow those lines of logic, then we should meet up in the street and beat this argument out with clubs and knives, any takers???? The fact is, regardless of why immigrants come here, or what they are doing here, the bill in question refuses any medical treatment to illegals and will prosecute any doctors following their hippocratic oath. That is a fundamentally flawed idea, and in the support of basic human rights, I am against it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe you came into the discussion a little late. It is a great point that every nationality has had to go through hard times and in most cases even worse than now. I don't know what you are trying to rationalize or what you are trying to make out of that. If someone comes here with absolutely nothing (and the little they do have is taken away from them in "welcoming fees") as many immigrants have, how do you expect them to live? Do you expect them to live the great life here? Of course not. It is not a racial thing at all, which is what I have been trying to point out to our good friend sleepy, but he doesn't want to get it. I agree with your second part. It is a bad bill. I don't know how it got through as far as it did. But something must be done to prevent this and to make our country more safe and so our tax money can go to use for CITIZENS of this country.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:13 PM) Exactly, which has been my point from the beginning, even though it's gotten lost in all of the bulls***... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The bulls*** has been instigated by you. YOU played the race card. You brought it up. It was unneccesary to do that. But you did. Now your playing the victim. Oh woah is me and all this bulls*** people keep bringing up. You started it and now you are upset because you have to deal with it. Plain and simple, you shouldn't have brought it up.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 06:02 PM) When was this. My grandparents spoke perfect english. My great grandfather spoke english. We lived in a town in Kerry in the South were Gaelic is still spoken today. I learned gaelic growing up, however we learned english first. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It has been a long time. I am not saying that it was common or that most did. But many did. I think it changed a great deal during the 18th century if I am not mistaken and even more drastically around the time of the potato famine. I could be wrong about the time frame.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:28 PM) Ok, I get your argument. It happened in the past, so that makes it perfectly acceptable now. Fair enough. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Acceptable? I am telling you that they don't have it as bad as these people that came here as immigrants way back then. They did not come here on ships called coffin ships. They can't be told that they can't get hired because they are a certain race. They are not being shipped off to war as soon as they touch our land. The little money that they do come here with is not being taken from them for a "welcoming fee". Do they have it bad? Yes, but compared to the past, not half as bad. I don't see how they are treated half as poorly as other immigrant groups were that came here on awful ships and became slaves or indentured servants or not able to get a job at all. And these were people that came here to actaully stay here and start a new life. These are not people that just wanted to send money back to another country and go back there some day.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:20 PM) "Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language". When did the Irish need to learn English? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not all Irish spoke English. Many only spoke Gaelic, which is nothing like English.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:18 PM) And did they all get kicked out of the country as many are calling for? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Did many want them out and call for it? YES!! There were people waiting for them to come off the boats to tell them to go back and that they weren't wanted. They considered the Irish a dirty people. A lot also became slaves and indentured servants. A lot of them didn't even get a chance to live here anyway because they were shipped off to fight some war they knew nothing about. However, there also wasn't an overcrowding problem in the United States back then. Is there now? This is not a problem that one race or nationality had to deal with. This has always happened. Either way, I think that is a ridiculous argument for you to make since that had nothing to do with my argument. You are arguing two different things. I was arguing your stance on poor treatment by others in this country. Your call for racism.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 05:15 PM) Yep, I'm "screaming racism." :rolly If you're gonna twist my words that poorly, might as well admit you've run out of things to say and are just talking out of your ass... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You brought it up twice when no one had nothing to say about a particular race and no one was making a racial stereotype or comment. You brought it into this conversation. Why? No one can figure that out.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 14, 2006 -> 08:04 AM) What point did I not refute? You're the one still hung up on a simple point that I made that is, in fact, relevant. I've explained time and time again that I do not believe racism is a main cause of those who are against illegal immigration, but I do believe that it does play a role in the poor treatment and degradation of immigrants. The idea that because racism is brought up it completely nullifies a point of view is narrow-minded and ridiculous. There are going to be racial undertones when dealing with this particular subject whether you feel you're above admitting it or not... Maybe you keep bringing that up because you have trouble refuting my points... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But then why bring it up? How does it help your argument at all? Your main points are that this is not a good bill and that we need a better solution to the problem. I would agree with those points. The bill is not perfect and we do need a better solution. I just don't agree with everything else that you add to the argument. And just to make a point here, all immigrants had to deal with this problem when they first came to this country. No one would hire the Irish when they first got here. You know the Irish had to take the most dangerous jobs (Police and Fire Fighters) that no one else wanted for very little pay. Then the Germans. Then the Polish........ Each nationality had to deal with that. Each nationality also had to live in filth and the slums. Each nationality was very poor. Each nationality was treated very poorly. Each nationality had to learn an entirely different language. That is something that Mexicans can get by on right now. They don't have to learn the language. As soon as the Irish men got off the boat they had to sign a paper to join the army and were then shipped off to fight in a war they knew nothing about. There seems to be a price you pay when you come over here with nothing. Is this the racism you are talking about? Because I am not sure I would call it racism. I would also think they are being treated badly because they are taking jobs away from others (United States tax paying citizens). Not necessarily in the fruit picking and gardening, but in construction and drywall work yes. Someone also brought up the argument to WCSox that if he couldn't afford kids and a family or it was difficult for him to then he shouldn't have them. It is my understanding that most Mexican's come across the border to provide for their family in Mexico. Because they can't provide for them over there. Many Mexican's have large families in Mexico. They have 5 - 10 kids that they can not support so they risk their life to come over here to get paid less than minimum wage so they can feed/provide for their 5 - 10 kids across the border. Why don't we tell them to stop having kids if they can't afford it instead of telling our own tax paying citizens to stop having kids or not to have kids. Obviously WCSox can support his and has no trouble doing so, he just doesn't feel like supporting other peoples families from other countries. That is the point he was tring to make and it was twisted around on him. By the way I DIDN'T SAY ALL MEXICANS. I DID NOT MAKE A BROAD JUDGEMENT OR RACIST REMARK. Just as all do not partake in the drug cartell or other criminal gang like activities, but some do.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 09:10 PM) What part of "But I do think stereotyping and racism plays a part in their poor treatment" did you not understand? No examples needed. I stated my opinion. I felt like bringing it up. Thanks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It just seems kind of odd to me to bring that up in this discussion when nothing we being made of it. Unless you were having trouble refuting a point, which seemed like the case.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Mar 11, 2006 -> 06:13 AM) Ummm thats physically impossible lol.... anyways they are talking about pranks they would of done when they were kids whats the problem. You just angry because thats what other kids did to you in highschool? lol <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is this a personal attack? To answer your question, no. I have never had anything like that done to me. I would play tricks on people such as a pin on chair, or pepper or hot sauce in a drink, but never something as nasty as spit or urine. You are taught how nasty that is at a very young age. I just can't believe kids actually spit in another's drink when I learned at such a young age how nasty and dirty that is. Whoever did that should be very ashamed.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Mar 11, 2006 -> 02:02 AM) Uh yeah, whats so wrong with that. As a kid, you do some dumb and childish things. Whats your deal? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Spitting must be one of the dirtiest things someone can do to another person. You didn't spit at or on someone but gave someone a drink with your spit in it. Very dirty. I thnk this is one of the first things you learn as a child, about how nasty and dirty that is. Very dirty, very nasty.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Mar 13, 2006 -> 04:42 AM) I'm not for illegal immigration. I'm for the United States setting up the proper laws, programs, etc. to regulate it efficiently. Since it doesn't, I can see why people come here illegally. And the assumptions keep coming...I never took a sociology course nor do I think racism is the main reason people oppose illegal immigration...But I do think stereotyping and racism plays a part in their poor treatment. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Can you give me an example of how someone here used this "racism and stereotyping" in a post that lead you to make this comment. I read through the whole thread and I can't find one besides your post that states it. Please show me an example of this and why you had to bring this into the argument at all. Thank you.

No, I don't. I don't agree in the least. Freshman beat up day, when I was in h.s., never put someone in the hospital. It never went to that extreme or violent. So no I don't agree with you at all. Viagra could give you way more than a boner. Viagra was originally used and developed as a general blood-pressure lowering drug. This could have different effects on different people. Ex-Lax is not even in the same league as Viagra, and to answer your question, no it isn't damaging. A swirly is not in the same league either. It is not comparable. I don't agree at all. Maybe's, if's, and's, and buts. A kid in my school also superglued another kid to a bus seat and was suspended for a while. Did he sue? No. It was a different time. Still it is not Viagra. Not comparable. This kid is not suing anyone either, as far as I know. I can't think of anything that was close to what this kid did without the kids getting expelled. I don't believe this kid's parents got his lawyer involved and if they did it wasn't to sue. I don't see anywhere that states a lawyer is invloved. I would not get a lawyer either, and I never said I did, but the kid should be punished and it is up to the school if the authorities should get involved. I believe dealing with prescription drugs in that manner requires for the authorities to get involved. I could be wrong however.