southsideirish

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 11:00 PM) QUOTE(southsideirish @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 05:16 PM) First, we were not arguing about later than 2nd, but after the first. I would say there is just as much success rate in a QB taken after then 1st round. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yes, and the QBs I stated all along in this draft have been whom? Frye, Orton, McPherson? I also stated that I would have rather had Campbell than Rodgers. I mean if they HAD to take a QB with that pick and spend a ton of money on the QB position I would have much rather taken Campbell than Rodgers. However, I would have taken neither. I would have taken a defensive player such as Marlin Jackson and went after Orton or McPherson later in the draft. JMO.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:56 PM) ahhh the what if game... face it... that list I posted alone proves if you want a starting QB your chances are better getting one in round ONE.. Not EVERYONE will work out, BUT those taken in the first work out a lot better than someone taken in later rounds... You dont have to like it, but the proof is right there in front of your face.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That list proves absolutely nothing. There are a ton of busts just waiting to happen on your first round list. Absolutely meaningless list.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:53 PM) Meaningless? Your whole f***ING argument started with the fact that the Packers could have gotten someone else in the 5th round and still would have had equal talent to Aaron Rodgers... I think that list I just posted should shut your ass up <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh is that what I stated? I think you better go back and check that out. I stated that I would have rather had Marlin Jackson or another defensive player in the first round because it would fill a greater need. I said I would have rather had Campbell, Frye, Orton, or McPherson than Rodgers and take a defensive player in the first. I stated that Campbell, Frye, Orton, and McPherson are equal to or better than Rodgers. You want to go back and look at my argument? I never once stated what you in fact just claimed that I did. Like I said you don't even know what you are arguing about anymore. You are absolutely clueless. You fought all this time because that is what you thought I said? You sure wasted a lot of your time buddy. Damn retards.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:48 PM) QB's taken after first round since 2000: Matt Schaub, Luke McCown, Craig Krenzel, Andy Hall, Josh Harris, Jim Sorgi, Jeff Smoker, John Navarre, Cody Pickett, Casey Bramlet, Matt Mauck, B.J. Symons, Bradlee Van Pelt, Dave Ragone, Chris Simms, Seneca Wallace, Brian St. Pierre, Drew Henson, Brooks Bollinger, Kliff Kingsbury, Gibran Hamdan, Ken Dorsey, Josh McCown, David Garrard, Rohan Davey, Randy Fasani, Kurt Kittner, Brandon Doman, Craig Nall, J.T. O'Sullivan, Seth Burford, Jeff Kelly, Wes Pate, Drew Brees, Quincy Carter, Marques Tuiasosopo, Chris Weinke, Sage Rosenfels, Jesse Palmer, Mike McMahon, A.J. Feeley, Josh Booty, Josh Heupel, Giovanni Carmazzi, Chris Redman, Tee Martin, Marc Bulger, Spergon Wynn, Tom Brady, Todd Husak, JaJuan Seider, Tim Rattay, Jarious Jackson, Joe Hamilton, Derek Anderson, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassel, Charlie Frye, David Greene, Stefan LeFors, James Kilian, Adrian McPherson, Dan Orlovski, Kyle Orton, Andrew Walter QB's taken in first round since 2000: Chad Pennington, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, J.P. Losman, Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers Bolding the Starters now... Bold' Campbell and Ramsey cuz one will start <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If QBs Harrington, Ramsey, Boller, Grossman, Manning, Rivers, Roethilisberger, Losman, and Smith fail, then where does this put your argument?

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:48 PM) Hasselbeck has had very similar season the last three years with his QB rating being in the mid to upper 80s each year which is pretty solid. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> pretty solid does not meet franchise standards does it? Don't get me wrong, he is very good and can be a franchise type, but at this moment I would not declare him as a franchise type.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:48 PM) QB's taken after first round since 2000: Matt Schaub, Luke McCown, Craig Krenzel, Andy Hall, Josh Harris, Jim Sorgi, Jeff Smoker, John Navarre, Cody Pickett, Casey Bramlet, Matt Mauck, B.J. Symons, Bradlee Van Pelt, Dave Ragone, Chris Simms, Seneca Wallace, Brian St. Pierre, Drew Henson, Brooks Bollinger, Kliff Kingsbury, Gibran Hamdan, Ken Dorsey, Josh McCown, David Garrard, Rohan Davey, Randy Fasani, Kurt Kittner, Brandon Doman, Craig Nall, J.T. O'Sullivan, Seth Burford, Jeff Kelly, Wes Pate, Drew Brees, Quincy Carter, Marques Tuiasosopo, Chris Weinke, Sage Rosenfels, Jesse Palmer, Mike McMahon, A.J. Feeley, Josh Booty, Josh Heupel, Giovanni Carmazzi, Chris Redman, Tee Martin, Marc Bulger, Spergon Wynn, Tom Brady, Todd Husak, JaJuan Seider, Tim Rattay, Jarious Jackson, Joe Hamilton, Derek Anderson, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Cassel, Charlie Frye, David Greene, Stefan LeFors, James Kilian, Adrian McPherson, Dan Orlovski, Kyle Orton, Andrew Walter QB's taken in first round since 2000: Chad Pennington, Michael Vick, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, J.P. Losman, Jason Campbell, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Meaningless

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:47 PM) Shouldn't the Cowboys be on that list? I assume Bledsoe will probably start for them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yes he should. good job 19 teams with 1st round starting QBs. However many are very young and you can't tell if they will be good or not. Remember Rick Mirer? Set rookie QB records. Where is he now?

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:44 PM) Doesnt change the fact that they are 1st round QB's starting.... not 4th or 5th rounders.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How long will they be starting? Does this prove that they are good or will not be busts? I think not. It is way too early to tell one way or another. Horrifible argument.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:43 PM) Over half.. 17 teams <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I already stated this in one of my first posts. I guess you weren't paying attention.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:43 PM) How does being injured=being inconsitent. When Pennington is on the field he is very good. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> and hasselbeck?

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:40 PM) Hasselbeck has made the pro bowl and led his team to the playoffs. In 2002 Pennington was one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL and had a passer rating of over 100 and this year took his team to the second round of the playoffs. When he is healthy he is pro bowl caliber but he has had trouble staying healthy the last couple of years. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> so you are saying inconsistency is a good way to judge if someone is a franchise QB?

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:39 PM) Um, when an Expansion Franchise takes you 1st overall to be THE Franchise, you are a Franchise QB.. VERY few teams have QB's starting that werent 1st rounders... Bears, Lions, Vikings, Bills, Jets, Ravens, Bengals, Steelers, Texans, Colts, Jags, Titans, Chargers (1st pick of 2nd round), Giants, Eagles, Redskins, Falcons, Saints, Giants all have a 1st rounder starting for them.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Saints dont and Chargers don, 1st pick of second round is still a second rounder. PLus I said 17 or 18 starting QBs are first rounders. How many of them will be considered good? Bears Lions Bills Ravens Bengals Steelers Texans Jags Giants and Redskins QBs still have not proven themselves to be good over the long haul.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:38 PM) FWIW only about 3 teams have wortwhile QB's not from the 1st round. Chiefs, Rams, Patriots <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Seahawks, Charger, Packers, Saints as well Hassellbeck Brees Favre Brooks

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:36 PM) look at the things I said BEFORE Zoom posted you dickhead.. Ive been saying the same things everyone else has been telling you.. your just too f***ing ignorant to realize it so you wanna sit here and try to justify your bulls*** posts which make no sense.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> sorry but you didn't. sad sad little man.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:29 PM) I didnt say Palmer and Roeth were, I said that were PICKED to be Carr was #1 overall, he is the face of the franchise and has improved every year.. he is a franchise QB Um, Vick was just in the NFC Title game and the Falcons BUILD around him.. I dont like him as a QB but he IS a Franchise QB Pennington another 1st round choice that has developed into a very good QB, hes a franchise QB <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Carr is not franchise. He can be, but isn't. Pennington is not franchise. He can be, but isn't. Just because you are picked to be a franchise QB doesn't mean you are one. I already agreed with WhiteSox that Vick is. Although I don't believe he is a great QB or even as good as Drew Brees, however he can run and protect the ball very well.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:30 PM) Thats that same f***ing thing I have been saying that he said, you have just been painted into a corner now and trying to cover your ass.. Give it up, your argument is pointless <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Go back and point out where you said anything close to what Zoom said you ridiculous fool. You could have never came up with that argument by yourself. You are half a retard waiting for answers to be handed out. Now put your dunce cap and go to the back of the room.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:29 PM) Take a look at the Falcons record with and without Vick to see why he is a franchice quarterback. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So he can run and protect the ball very well. He is a great option QB. Ok though Whitesox I will give you that one, but only because he got them to the playoffs by himself. But what have the rest proven.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:26 PM) I have said the same thing everyone else has told you... get it through your head, your wrong and now your just looking like an ass <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No you haven't. Other have come up with good arguments. Zoom came up with a very good one that you tried to piggy back. You havent shown s***.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:26 PM) Franchise QB's Culpepper Manning Favre McNabb Brady Carr Hasselbeck Leftwhich Pennington Vick Those are ALL Franchise QB's, thats without mention people who were picked to be the Franchise like Palmer or Roethlisberger <{POST_SNAPBACK}> really Carr, Vick, Leftwich, Pennington, and Hasselbeck have proven this how? How has Palmer or Roethlisberger? I agree they can be, but to make the statement that they already are is kind of ludicrous.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:22 PM) Its pointless to try to get this through to him, he wont get it <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You have proven absolutely nothing, but then again do you ever? You usually just hope others point things out for you and hope your right. You are clueless. Oh, and I almost forgot, you throw in childish insults to help your case.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:21 PM) The success rate is no where near the same and you are kidding yourself if you truly think that. Sure there are a lot of busts in the first round but there are tons of quarterbacks that don't even make teams or are career third stringers from the later rounds. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So because there are more QBs taken in the first round it makes a better success rate? Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown and Ryan Leaf are not even in the league anymore. I don't think there is a higher success rate because there are more QBs taken in the first round.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:12 PM) The point isn't whether you can find a mediocre quarterback that gets by for a year or two in the later rounds. Clearly you can. But how many franchise-type QB's get taken on the second day of the draft? In the last 20 years it's basically Brady, with Young coming out of the USFL. Not exactly a high success rate there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So Brett Favre is not a franchis QB? Tom Brady is not a franchise QB? How many franchise QBs are there? Are you actually telling me Rodgers is a franchise QB? I highly doubt that. Steve Young was drafted by TB wasn't he? He wasn't taken directly out of the USFL. If that is the case then so was Jim Kelly. Most of the QBs in this league could not be considered franchise QBs. You are picking out a select few if you are doing that. There is not a high success rate picking these players in the first round either. There is just as much a boom or bust in the first round with QBs.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:09 PM) Just give it up... no one here agrees with you... and you dont even make any sense.. Again you just look like a moron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Damn shame with the insults.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:04 PM) Hold on a second here, let's look at all of the top QB's in the league and where they went in the draft. Peyton Manning- #1 overall Dante Culpepper- #11 overall Tom Brady- 6th round Brett Favre- Second Round Donovan McNabb- 3rd overall Michael Vick (I know, he's a RB playing QB, he's still makes one of the biggest impacts)- 1st overall Steve McNair- can't remember exactly where he went, but he was either a late first or second round pick. To me those are the only major upgrades over the rest of the league. Only one of them was taken after the second round, and an arguement can be made that Brady wouldn't be there if he were on a weaker team. You do never know what you are going to get, but many more of the first round picks become successes than in the later rounds. The guys that stick around for the long run are more likely to be top picks. If you are looking for a backup that might step in and succeed as a starter for a year or two, then you can take a chance on a later round pick. But if you want to get a QB that is going to be an above average starter for many years, you almost have to take them early. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First, we were not arguing about later than 2nd, but after the first. I would say there is just as much success rate in a QB taken after then 1st round. Tim Couch, Cade McNown, and Akili Smith were in the same draft that produced Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper. Peyton Manning was in the same draft as Ryan Leaf. Drew Brees, who some consider last years MVP, was taken in the 2nd round of the same draft as Michael Vick, who may be overrated as a QB. The success rate is the same. You are taking a chance mo matter where you draft the QB. I don't think Rodgers was worth the pick for the Packers when they had other needs to fill.

QUOTE(T R U @ Apr 25, 2005 -> 10:06 PM) Check and Mate <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yeah you did a lot of research there T R U. Good job.