Chisoxfn

I think we are going to see them go after a Rondo or Conley type player and look more for longer term, but to be frank, I think they are still figuring that out. Noah is probably on the way out, although it is definitely plausible that Pau and a Rondo are both brought in on 1 year deals (which wouldn't be awful as the team would theoretically be better, while still be in a position that a year from now they have cap space). I'm guessing the PG position plus having Robin Lopez instead of Noah will be the primary moves (don't know if Pau would actually come back for that) but having his buddy as a backup PG might help. Conley would be really nice, but I don't know if it makes sense to go longer term and that is what I think it will take to get Conley (who is a big upgrade over Rose, but, at the same time, is coming off some injuries himself and is getting older.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 23, 2016 -> 06:48 AM) For sure. Regardless, their next moves should be dumping Dunleavy and Taj though. I'm not a huge Jimmy Butler guy but he is a top 20 player in the league. Maybe even better. The Bulls need a ton to move him. If Boston gave me #3, and another 1st this year with Brooklyn's 2017 pick and Jae Crowder + filler I'd do that. The Bulls can't move him for #3, Crowder and Bradley or a TWolves package without Wiggins though. It's just not enough value. Honestly, I don't know hat they are going to move Dunleavy & Taj though.

Woj's take below (summarized): Woj saying he can't believe how much the Bulls got for Rose. Also thinks Rose will stunt KP's development. Both he and Shams aren't sure Rose understands how much scrutiny he'll get in NYC. Shams also says the tension between Rose and Butler was real and that the FO had to get rid of Rose so Butler can be the leader of the team.

The next thing I expect to hear about is how the Bulls tried to trade Niko and others (along with our pick / other picks) to move up to get Dunn. I don't think anyone will bite, but I certainly think we are going to try and get in some 3 team deal with someone picking in the top 6 spots to try and land our longer term PG. That said, I think the Bulls are more Bullish on Grant than others. Grant did play pretty good when he finally got some action very late in the season for the Knicks.

Buckets averaged 27/7/7 in games that Rose didn't play in last year. Some of that is inflated by that huge game in Toronto, IIRC.

QUOTE (buhbuhburrrrlz @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 04:10 PM) K.C. Johnson ‏@KCJHoop 2h2 hours ago Gar: "We value Jimmy. He fits in the direction we're headed." Interesting that Melo's people reached out to Rose and Rose wouldn't talk to him either. Ignored the Bulls during the off-season, ignored Butler's attempts to have him train with him and Taj (evidently Rose ended up no showing)....yeah, not exactly enduring things for a guy who hasn't lived up to expectations after his injury. Reports are that the Bulls have spent a lot of time engaging in discussions with Butler around the future of the franchise, etc. I think it is pretty evident (even the league chatter is the Bulls continue to say no and that includes turning down some solid proposals) they think pretty highly of Jimmy.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 04:03 PM) Just be glad you didn't grow up admiring Kirk Hinrich. I'm going to buy me a Hinrich jersey. I'd always be able to wear it with a sense of pride. I have nothing but good memories of captain Kirk. Than again, I was the resident Hinrich homer.

Thought the below nugget was interesting. I will caveat this by saying I don't know much about "win shares" and what defines them, but I do know under a lot of advanced stats Rose graded out really really poorly: Of the five players involved in the trade, Rose had the fewest win shares last season. The Bulls' three acquisitions (10.6 win shares) were worth 9.4 more wins than the Knicks' two acquisitions (1.2 win shares).

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 03:15 PM) Jason I have to believe you had the luxury of not watching the Bulls last year to find Butler ball entertaining. Would much rather have suffered another year of hell and faced 2018 fresh than with this news that we are trying to "retool" (worked great with Sox, Jerry) with Pau Gasol Jimmy Butler and Robin Lopez as our core. Kill me now. LOL at resigning Gasol. For the next four years we are basically the Brandon Jennings Milwaukee Bucks without fat OJ Mayo to gawk at. Maybe we'll get lucky and McDermott will put his baby fat back on. I watched almost every Bulls game. Butler was not what was wrong with the Bulls, but the dynamic with him and Rose was one of the things that was wrong. Derrick Rose was awful, the team had a lot of injuries, including Jimmy Butler, and well Hoiberg was terrible and part of that might have been due to Butler pushing him wrong and everything else, but we need a real PG. Just look at the overall team and how much better they were when Rose was out vs. in (both offensively and defensively). On the flipside, the opposite happened when Buckets was out. The two players were just awful fits alongside each other.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 02:35 PM) God I hope Pau isn't back. WHAT'S THE POINT?Only makes sense if they have some hidden acquisition up their sleeve and I don't possibly know how they could acquire it via trade (they could make a big signing)...I just don't know how they make a big signing while keeping Pau (although I suppose they could trade Niko/Taj or others and than make a big signing and keep Pau).

I should point out, the team with the most downside from this deal is the Bulls because if they legitimately were planning on aligning for 2018, they should have just kept Rose and seen if he was super explosive during the first half of the season as they could have gotten more value at a later date. I say this because Rose clearly has the athleticism to still be a very good player...he just hasn't had the mental capacity / confidence to do so. So from an upside perspective, NY has more potential upside and I think it was a very good deal for the Knicks (gives them more payroll flexibility a year from now too).

QUOTE (shipps @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 02:30 PM) Yeah I listened too and he sure didn't go full blown "we are committed to Jimmy" by any stretch of the imagination. My bet is that Jimmy is gone too and I am not sure it will be for the haul that Bulls fans want. It may be for a high first and a throw in and they take their lumps. I think it is more that they know it is a dynamic and fluid situation and they are aware that they need to be able to adjust on the fly and be a little more creative / think out of the box than they have done in the past. I still expect Jimmy to be here unless we see just an absurd offer come across Gar / Pax's desk.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 02:10 PM) Per KC Gar said he didn't talk to Rose, only agent BJ Armstrong. Said he got Rose's voice mail. I'm told Bulls had trouble reaching Rose all summer Everyone complains about Rose, but it is Butler who last off-season and this off-season had actually taken the time to train and spend time with other players on the Bulls. Rose made a brief appearance with Butler, but it was Butler who organized everything and set things up with Snell and Taj (plus all the time he spent with Dougie). Rose lives in the world of isolation yet it is Butler that is the cancer. You know what, Kobe wasn't always the easiest guy to work with but he put in tons of work and expected it out of everyone else and ultimately he was a good leader. He needed a guy like Derrick Fisher around him who could play the nice guy to his bad guy, but the end of the day, I think Butler has a lot of Kobe in him (not talent wise...please don't let anyone think I'm saying he has that talent...but he does have that attitude and will to just outwork everyone and he tries to push and lead by example with others and that is okay). He also was new to this role so you could presume there would be bumps and whenever you have a "changing" over the guard, you know the older guard is going to be the one who has the most difficult time adjusting (doesn't mean I'm blaming Rose or Noah either...just that it is natural).

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) K.C. Johnson ‏@KCJHoop 9m9 minutes ago Bulls knew they had to address Rose-Butler dynamic. They also knew Rose was walking in 17. Hmm, didn't know it was a foregone conclusion that Rose was going to walk after next year. If that was the case, at least Bulls got something for him. Rose is going to want a mega deal and he isn't a very good fit for this team. Maybe he turns back into a star, but I don't believe it was happening in Chicago and I think he's too risky an investment to tie the type of money he will likely get a year from now. The Bulls absolutely had to move Rose.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 01:14 PM) You're being silly. The Bulls aren't THAT awful unless the next step is moving Butler. Butler alone puts them ahead of a third of the league or more. You seem surprised that the Bulls got crap for a injury-prone net-minus player that's making over 20 mil. Spanish Kirk Hinrich is only here for one year and while Lopez's contract isn't ideal, it's tolerable with the new cap. They would have to sign similar or worse contracts next year anyway to get to the new salary floor after they whiff on the decent FA. It's not really going to set them back. At least now we don't have to worry about them stupidly resigning Rose, and they picked up a semi-competent big and a young PG that should be better outside of the Triangle offense. Good post. PS, I don't buy any of the Butler rumors unless we get totally blown away. I.e., Wiggins plus the pick for Butler + our 1st or Boston gives us this years top pick plus other top picks.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 01:11 PM) Oh and taking on Lopez's contract while trading Butler would also be very confusing to me. Given Lopez would get as much, if not more on the FA market today, I presume that would mean if we wanted to, we could move him. Presume...I'm obviously not a GM so I technically don't know the market. I view this as the team is in a position where it could pivot a multitude of directions. They could make a push at a top player now (to surround with a more solid core plus Butler...would they be favorites if they signed KD, no, but they'd be pretty damn legit contenders) or they could wait a year, where there is a more realistic chance you could actually land another top FA (not saying they'd get them, but more potential options). Again, instant contender, no, but very good team that could possibly contend, certainly. They could also get a blown away offer for Butler, but without that, there is no need. He's a top 15 player in the league signed long-term to a fair deal in what is a star league. We won't win with him as a #1 (at least not based upon his current talent level) but we absolutely could with him as the #2.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 12:58 PM) Can't decide who will be the more miserable team to watch next year, the chicago bulls or the brooklyn nets. Yes, because the Nets have a player like Butler. Oh and the Nets literally don't have their 1st round pick in the next two years either (technically next year they'll swap with the Celtics so they'll end up with the Celtics pick). Come on...this is absurd overreaction. I'm not saying we are going to be a championship team, but we aren't talking about being god awful. I realize people have this theory that we should either be a championship favorite or the worse team on the planet trying to stockpile assets, but the reality is there is a fine line there. If we saw that approach, the Heat probably would have been blown up prior to acquiring Lebron, the Mavericks wouldn't have won a title, the Lakers 2nd run would have been blown up (Kobe would have been moved and thus they never would have been in a spot to land Pau to push them over the top after Bynum suddenly emerged as a quality pick) and to be frank Golden State would have been blown up (as Steph had never proven to be awesome). It is okay to be a pretty good team and being in that constant spot where a good pick here (or the right trade opportunity there) and you are a potential contender. You never know about injuries, etc, oh and well it is more entertaining to watch anyway.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 12:53 PM) Eh, to me it feels like Butler forced out Noah and Derrick, who both destroyed their bodies for this team. I don't really know how Rose destroyed his body for the team. He did a lot of sitting and was the opposite of a team first player. I don't disagree on Noah, but we don't know all of what happened with Noah and Butler.

By the way, isn't Calderon a free agent after this year anyway, so it isn't like we added some long term deal there. Lopez is the one longer team deal we took on (Grant will be on his rookie deal) and at 4 / 54M and given where the cap is going, I don't actually think his contract will be viewed as horrifically (as it currently stands, so if the Bulls wanted to, they could move him). This deal kind of puts the Bulls in the spot they could make a run this year to sign someone big (and have good role players plus another star in Butler to surround them with) or they could potentially move these pieces to other teams and free up more space for next year if that is the strategic direction they go. I'd argue on the open market this year, Lopez would get at least the 4/ 54M offer he signed last year, if not more.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 12:48 PM) Terrible deal. Derrick may not be the warrior that would die on the court his first four years with the team, but those four years were special. He was Chicago's own carrying Jordan's legacy. Also, I'm just gonna go with Jimmy Butler is a f***ing diva. Say what you will about Derrick and his injuries, but he didn't force people off the team like it appears Jimmy Butler is doing with Rose, Noah and Thibs (though he wasn't alone on that one). I don't think Butler has done any of that. I think it is a matter of the guys that were there before Jimmy don't respect Jimmy and are all relying on their historical old guard ways. I still say Thibs is interested in bringing Butler back so I don't think there was near the disconnect believed. Pau and Butler get along great and Butler busts his but. We could use more Butler's and less Rose's as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunate cause Rose was impacted from his injuries (more mentally than physically) and unfortunately it changed who he was. Wish him the best, but now was the time. This roster just didn't work with them both here and honestly, what do we expect. Butler does need to continue to work and hone on his leadership skills though (so he isn't innocent in everything). But Butler has done that with a ton of the younger players on this franchise.

QUOTE (shipps @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 12:43 PM) By the numbers this deal just absolutely sucks from the Bulls standpoint but it sure feels like a load off knowing the Rose era is done. It needed to be done a long time ago. I definitely think it allows them to go forward, but I wonder what their plans are to deal with Lopez and Calderon's contract. I don't know what there market is, but I'm guessing at some point they could potentially move them? I like the idea of Grant given the Bulls supposedly liked him a lot heading into the draft last year. I've said for a while, Bulls needed to move from Rose and find a PG who is a more true PG who can theoritically work with Butler and run whatever system Hoiberg truly wants to run. Rose just was such a shell of his old self and I think this move will be really good for him to get a chance to play without the prior expectations. I didn't like giving up Holliday though and this doesn't mean the Bulls don't totally blow-up and move Butler (as if they got the right deal, they could have a ton of young, cheap assets a year from now, although I think more realistically they plan on trying to get a PG and than signing someone in 2018.

Sad that it happened and I hope he does well in a new spot. I'm curious what Grant can do and clearly Calderon gives us a point guard, but my biggest concern is why we are taking on longer term payroll. This move should have been all about losing Rose. Hopefully we can spin some of the longer term contracts to ensure we are better positioned for 2018.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 10:58 AM) I'm wondering which franchise is paying the most to players who aren't on any MLB roster. The Red Sox have to be up there with Crawford, anyone else? I presume you mean the Dodgers. I think the Dodgers are near the top of the list. Angels are pretty high as well (paying Josh Hamilton, CJ Wilson)...although I guess I'm lumping in DL players vs. not on roster. Angels, between guys on the Dl and retained money (i.e., Josh Hamilton's of the world) are at ~$75M for 2016 alone. Pretty insane. Dodgers are at 109M. Red Sox are at 51M (and that includes guys like Rusney Castillo and Alan Craig who are burried in the minors).

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 09:59 AM) There is no point trading just to trade. The NBA is a superstar league, so unless you are trading to somehow acquire potential superstars, there is just no point. If it was the 1 or 2 pick and you are getting Simmons or Ingram, then trading Butler makes sense. Otherwise, what is the rush? You may as well keep your options open to trade him in the future. I guess I just see this draft as pretty risky, so I dont feel a great urge to deal the Bulls most valuable asset. Not for one asset that is a #3 pick and some role players. Makes zero sense. Butler is an all star and a player who has continued to trend upward. He also is signed to an extremely beneficial contract. There is zero reason we should move him unless it truly helps position us to be better. The proposed deals do not make us better longer-term. What we should do is clear Rose and work to find a point guard so that we can ideally see some improvement this year and than leverage the cap space next off-season.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 22, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) They apparently love Kris Dunn. I guess it depends on how much. I don't think they have Brooklyn's #1 next year. Teams can;'t trade #1 picks in successive years Since they have so many picks, I think they are allowed to still make the trade. The celtics have the rights to swap picks with the Nets next year (so essentially they have the Nets pick).