Princess Dye

I should add BA probably gets some cheers from the ladies. They dig his big shamrock gloves.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:41 PM) He got 2 f***ing hits in the postseason, that doesn't make him a leadoff hitter for a title contender. The fact of the matter is: at every stop in this guy's career he proved that he shouldn't hit atop a major league lineup and the fans knew it. It Getz returns and struggles how long will it take for boos to begin though? If they ever leadoff BA, which now seems it wont happen....that would be the proof, as he's 27 and most fans know he's been around the organization awhile.

When Brian Anderson steps up to bat...what do people hear? I have to say it's a cheer that's just a little disproportionate to his achievements here. He's a great defensive player. Wise has gotten RBI's in a division race and playoffs. If all was perfectly earned, it should be crickets for both of them when they step up though.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:36 PM) What Wise did last year as a 30 year old in AAA is irrelevant, he's proven over the past 12 years that he can't even hit minor league pitching, a few fluky months changes nothing. You're comparing a 31 year old with a career .309 minor league OBP and sub .300 2009 spring OBP to a 25 year old with a .361 career minor league OBP and .400+? 2009 spring OBP. But if we're real real honest, dont you think the majority of those booing fans wanted to win that day? Even if they dont know anyone's minor league #s (i think a lot of those fans fall in that category)...... they shouldve liked the most recent stuff they saw from Wise which was postseason clutch hitting! I agree that shouldnt make Wise's leash long. I'm glad he's out of #1 hole. But the leash is microscopic if we boo after 2 at-bats, c'mon.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:14 PM) But you are willing to say that people rooting for Scalabrine are racists. I can't do that either. There are a million different legitimate reasons to root for a player that get ignored in that scenario. Heck one of my all-time favorite baseball players is Jeff Bajenaru. He just happens to have some absolutely horrible statistics at the major league level. Does that make me a racist? Uh, no. Baj was one of the greatest guys I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with, and that's what I rooted for him to make it, dispite his lack of talent. I know in basketball a proud tradition is rooting hard for the 12 man on the team to make an appearence, and then going crazy once he does. Could a large portion of Scalabrine's "fans" be of that ilk? The idea that people are only rooting for him because he is white is so incredibly narrow-minded it boggles the mind. Agreed. And I think there's weight behind what the poster said regarding Muggsy Bogues and Manute Bol, although I think there are examples that werent such niche guys. I suppose it's true that Scalabrine has a bit of the freak factor, if that's the larger point. See, I didnt phrase it that way. I said racial thinking goes into it. African-Americans probably make up a low portion of the hockey fan viewing public. It's probably the thinking that the players dont look like me so I wont have much in common with it. I've also heard it said that people prefer college basketball because it has less of the cornrows look about it than NBA. It's the same thing in reverse. I'm not calling one side of that bad or good. But it's there.

Also just aside from the discussion, Wise was .319/.402 last year at Charlottle. Getz was .302/.366, albeit in many more at-bats. If fans are booing the front office for not preparing us for THIS year, they need to keep on doing it I guess until Getz proves he's a top of the order MLB hitter. My whole view is though that booing is pointless to begin with.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:11 PM) No one responded. mmkay. I tend to think the bolded part directly addresses why Wise was being booed or why Anderson is seen as different from Wise. You're absolutely right. I mean Alexei has earned some good will too on this very team. But I just think Getz and Wise is the perfect comparison because one guy took over for the other the next day. And then proceeded to fail. Getz hasnt done anything for the Sox org, Wise had clutch RBIs last season. I'd like to think the fans know Wise isnt an ideal leadoff hitter, but I have to wonder how many of those people booing know his exact career OBP and age.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:04 PM) I will help you out, look at post #16. Then you will know why this thread is as long as it is, and you wont need to read the middle unless you feel like it I cant speak for the guy who started the discussion, but I wish people wouldnt take this as accusation. It should be no shock that racial thinking takes part in our society. US is a melting pot. Few other nations have the massive involvement we had in the slave trade. We have problems here dealing with that history and it hasnt faded, just changes. We'd like to think of baseball as a pure area that's free of that, but I dont see why it would be different from everything else.

I guess the real test will be when Brian Anderson is 31. Heck he's already 27, right? Gettin to that Wise level where he's only been able to do it with the bat in the minors.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:00 PM) So basically the only test that applies is if you narrow the window to such a narrow point that only one player fits through it? Really? This discussion is a waste of time in that case. Well youre asking me to prove that a racist would never buy a Kobe Bryant jersey. I cant do that. To me what we're discussing is a lot more subtle than that. It's not just Scalabrine though, I mean the popularity of college basketball and hockey are in part driven by things some would not want to face. It works the other way too, the NBA sells a big chunk of those jerseys to minorities and the Sox cap itself...we know what connotation that has had. The connotation probably paid for Albert Belle oddly enough.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:48 PM) Wise is being booed because he is 31 years old and hasn't shown MLB-level starting talent, yet KW was apparently relying on either him or Owens. Getz is not being booed because he is a 25 year old rookie who has shown a lot of potential. I agree that this is the board's mindset. But can we really believe that huge amount of booing in The Cell was done with the knowledge that Wise is 31? Some of the people in that crowd read every stat available on every player. Some have not been to ESPN.com ever. It's the booing that day that got me upset. The talk around here is very well informed with regards to players' backgrounds.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:46 PM) Let's talk about the NBA then... I see zero, American born white guys on this list. Again with people bring up star examples. Obviously the all-out racist guy isnt going to hate Jordan if he's a basketball fan. Where the situation is really tested is when you have lower talent guys. In the case of Scalabrine, out-of-NBA type talent.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:45 PM) So far, the examples I am seeing here about supposed racism among White Sox fans are... Wise/Getz (which we thoroughly explained), Dye/Crede (which is manifestly untrue), and some Celtics basketball player. That's it? For the 3rd time it's not racism. Wise/Getz was explained as people arent booing Getz because they are more patient about someone who has a higher ceiling. But if it's a booing of front office decisions (as some claim), they should still be unhappy with an unproven guy being put in there. After all, they had similar recent AAA numbers. Are we really to believe that those people booing in that stadium have this huge problem with Wise being 31? How much of the crowd knows his age? They want the Sox to win the game at hand. Dye/Crede I dont remember being shut down, but I'd agree it's more of a close call. Crede is more popular than Dye amongst the garden variety US Cellular attendee. There's no discernible difference in personality, and if anything one has just been noticeably better and more important to the team's success. Scalabrine simply brought up as the extreme of what we're talking about b/c of his unwarranted standing o's.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:10 PM) Again, your Scalabrine example just doesnt make sense. I barely even know who he is, and I certainly dont know that he has built up a boston fanbase. If this guy was such a clearcut example of racism that you see in sports, you would think that it would be talked up a little bit more. That's my whole point though. No one touches the reason behind his popularity. He's a monumentally untalented basketball player who is cheered by the entire crowd every time he puts up a shot. It's really something to witness if yr ever flipping around and see the Celtics in garbage time. No one really touches on the reason for his popularity with a ten foot pole however. Thats where I wish we'd take the next step in discussion like this, nationwide that is. Talking more about what's unintentional but still a problem. Again this is something I see myself doing as well.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:29 PM) How about no, because they arent...? Name one. Really? Where? Not trying to be a dick, but this post makes it look like you're just talking out your ass You're not really responding to him with this post. There's no explanation here.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:00 PM) just like you just said "I didnt call anyone racist", Im going to turn that around on you and tell you that i didnt tell anyone that they couldnt talk about race issues. Like lostfan just said, there is a time and place for these things, and this thread and forum are neither. And it doesnt look like anyone is afraid to talk race here. At all. Of course when you bringing up piss poor examples like Brian Scalabrine on the Celtics as your proof, its kind of hard to get a foothold in a decent conversation Fair enough, I just think that going to the Filibuster is like saying lets kill it. I dont know a ton about how popular the filibuster is though. I would think a lot more people see something if it's here. Scalabrine is the poster child for this element of sports fandom. There's no good reason for him to be hailed as he is.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 11:57 AM) I actually don't have a problem with making those kinds of observations, after all, it's not the first time I've discussed racism (see Filibuster). I just think the logic you used to reach this conclusion is BS, non-existent even (hence the big negative reaction). I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me. If what I'm saying is so flimsy and without merit, I should be getting good explanations. Instead it's just anger. People are coming up with some of the greatest White Sox hitters ever to knock down this argument, and mentioning Alexei's unreal rookie year with all those grand slams. But I think that's my point, that the untalented lovable grinder guy very often seems to be a white dude. Not always but it leans that way. I cant explain it but it's there.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 11:52 AM) You act as if you do not know that race issues are inflammatory. The filibuster was created for discussion of many different inflammatory topics, and this is very close to becoming one of those topics. Palehose talk doesnt need this type of thread cluttering up the works In Germany, there's actually a penalty for how much you talk about the Holocaust. It's a free speech restriction made in hopes of bettering their society and repairing things. I just wonder how anyone learns about it if they're afraid to speak.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 11:47 AM) Because, again, Dweezy has been playing professional baseball for 15 years and has had no success at it. Getz is basically a rookie. BIG difference in where they stand. People can put up with "growing pains", they can't put up with proven "crap" - and I'm talking on a professional baseball playing ability. But if people are booing the front office for not getting a Coco Crisp, if that is what people are arguing... ...then they should boo both "growing pains" and "unproven crap" SouthsideDon and myself have both said the following: We're not calling anyone racist. Put words in our mouth if you want. Here I am, I'm white and I consider myself a well-intentioned guy. I still find myself thinking along racial lines at certain times. I cant help it. I'm saying the fans did this as well with Wise and then heard each other kind of letting out a boo after TWO at-bats...and it reached a groundswell. Pretty soon it was happening each at-bat.

Well this is where I differ from the southsidedon posts because Dye being traded at this age has no bearing on anything. I'm white, and I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of franchises have a situation where there are second or third tier talent white players that are seen as this hardworking, grinder class...... .....and there are players of color that fit that same bill and aren't embraced as easily. I agree with those that say Crede has taken his lumps on this board - I guess my point is less in reference to the people posting here as opposed to the people booing at US Cellular. I think the type of person that posts here is (in many cases) different than the majority of US Cellular attendees. This is just a feeling I get though. Also I'm kind of surprised that so few people here want to touch the topic, some saying send it to Filibuster. I dont see the danger in merely talking.

To those attacking SouthsideDon with no real substance behind their defense.... let me ask this: What are your thoughts of Brian Scalabrine and his popularity in Boston? Granted, that is taken to kind of a circus level where they're almost making fun of him...... ....but if you scale it back it helps inform the Crede vs. Dye thing. Both those guys are quiet personality wise, so there has to be some reason why there's a difference in the way they're treated. Both were clutch guys, one perhaps more so in some of the biggest moments of the franchise's history. One has a longer stretch of consistent, important numbers put up (granted w/ more health) Yet the other undeniably has that cult status...to a substantially greater degree I would say. I dont think of this as "most fans are racist." It's just that race affects what we do even despite our intentions, b/c the country has such a history with it. It's engrained in us. I'm not gonna say that SouthsideDon's argument is without holes, but how bout take on this one: Wise was booed, some say, as a proxy-boo of the front office and Ozzie. He was an unproven leadoff guy yet thrust out there. Then why no booing of Getz? Fewer previous major league at-bats than Wise. Their most recent year of minor league numbers were comparable if I remember correctly. Getz is still a sign that this front office under-filled the roster.

Wise has a Grade 3 shoulder separation - i guess that's the worst one?

Any team that would claim Brian would immediately slot him as a backup outfielder, with the thought of maybe his bat one day coming around. Any team that was thinking of picking up Owens would need to have an undeniable hole at leadoff, as well as a spot in the OF. He's an experiment you'd get in hopes that his career OBP would somehow kick up 20 points. His arm isnt worth it as a 4th OF. Teams arent willing to claim their leadoff spot is dead this early in the year. All but us perhaps!

Well I guess that wipes out the need for fearing the organization has a huge Owens mancrush.

Well they should reunite here, once all our $$ comes off the books. green of course.