Princess Dye

I guess the real test will be when Brian Anderson is 31. Heck he's already 27, right? Gettin to that Wise level where he's only been able to do it with the bat in the minors.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 01:00 PM) So basically the only test that applies is if you narrow the window to such a narrow point that only one player fits through it? Really? This discussion is a waste of time in that case. Well youre asking me to prove that a racist would never buy a Kobe Bryant jersey. I cant do that. To me what we're discussing is a lot more subtle than that. It's not just Scalabrine though, I mean the popularity of college basketball and hockey are in part driven by things some would not want to face. It works the other way too, the NBA sells a big chunk of those jerseys to minorities and the Sox cap itself...we know what connotation that has had. The connotation probably paid for Albert Belle oddly enough.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:48 PM) Wise is being booed because he is 31 years old and hasn't shown MLB-level starting talent, yet KW was apparently relying on either him or Owens. Getz is not being booed because he is a 25 year old rookie who has shown a lot of potential. I agree that this is the board's mindset. But can we really believe that huge amount of booing in The Cell was done with the knowledge that Wise is 31? Some of the people in that crowd read every stat available on every player. Some have not been to ESPN.com ever. It's the booing that day that got me upset. The talk around here is very well informed with regards to players' backgrounds.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:46 PM) Let's talk about the NBA then... I see zero, American born white guys on this list. Again with people bring up star examples. Obviously the all-out racist guy isnt going to hate Jordan if he's a basketball fan. Where the situation is really tested is when you have lower talent guys. In the case of Scalabrine, out-of-NBA type talent.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:45 PM) So far, the examples I am seeing here about supposed racism among White Sox fans are... Wise/Getz (which we thoroughly explained), Dye/Crede (which is manifestly untrue), and some Celtics basketball player. That's it? For the 3rd time it's not racism. Wise/Getz was explained as people arent booing Getz because they are more patient about someone who has a higher ceiling. But if it's a booing of front office decisions (as some claim), they should still be unhappy with an unproven guy being put in there. After all, they had similar recent AAA numbers. Are we really to believe that those people booing in that stadium have this huge problem with Wise being 31? How much of the crowd knows his age? They want the Sox to win the game at hand. Dye/Crede I dont remember being shut down, but I'd agree it's more of a close call. Crede is more popular than Dye amongst the garden variety US Cellular attendee. There's no discernible difference in personality, and if anything one has just been noticeably better and more important to the team's success. Scalabrine simply brought up as the extreme of what we're talking about b/c of his unwarranted standing o's.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:10 PM) Again, your Scalabrine example just doesnt make sense. I barely even know who he is, and I certainly dont know that he has built up a boston fanbase. If this guy was such a clearcut example of racism that you see in sports, you would think that it would be talked up a little bit more. That's my whole point though. No one touches the reason behind his popularity. He's a monumentally untalented basketball player who is cheered by the entire crowd every time he puts up a shot. It's really something to witness if yr ever flipping around and see the Celtics in garbage time. No one really touches on the reason for his popularity with a ten foot pole however. Thats where I wish we'd take the next step in discussion like this, nationwide that is. Talking more about what's unintentional but still a problem. Again this is something I see myself doing as well.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:29 PM) How about no, because they arent...? Name one. Really? Where? Not trying to be a dick, but this post makes it look like you're just talking out your ass You're not really responding to him with this post. There's no explanation here.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 12:00 PM) just like you just said "I didnt call anyone racist", Im going to turn that around on you and tell you that i didnt tell anyone that they couldnt talk about race issues. Like lostfan just said, there is a time and place for these things, and this thread and forum are neither. And it doesnt look like anyone is afraid to talk race here. At all. Of course when you bringing up piss poor examples like Brian Scalabrine on the Celtics as your proof, its kind of hard to get a foothold in a decent conversation Fair enough, I just think that going to the Filibuster is like saying lets kill it. I dont know a ton about how popular the filibuster is though. I would think a lot more people see something if it's here. Scalabrine is the poster child for this element of sports fandom. There's no good reason for him to be hailed as he is.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 11:57 AM) I actually don't have a problem with making those kinds of observations, after all, it's not the first time I've discussed racism (see Filibuster). I just think the logic you used to reach this conclusion is BS, non-existent even (hence the big negative reaction). I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me. If what I'm saying is so flimsy and without merit, I should be getting good explanations. Instead it's just anger. People are coming up with some of the greatest White Sox hitters ever to knock down this argument, and mentioning Alexei's unreal rookie year with all those grand slams. But I think that's my point, that the untalented lovable grinder guy very often seems to be a white dude. Not always but it leans that way. I cant explain it but it's there.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 11:52 AM) You act as if you do not know that race issues are inflammatory. The filibuster was created for discussion of many different inflammatory topics, and this is very close to becoming one of those topics. Palehose talk doesnt need this type of thread cluttering up the works In Germany, there's actually a penalty for how much you talk about the Holocaust. It's a free speech restriction made in hopes of bettering their society and repairing things. I just wonder how anyone learns about it if they're afraid to speak.

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Apr 14, 2009 -> 11:47 AM) Because, again, Dweezy has been playing professional baseball for 15 years and has had no success at it. Getz is basically a rookie. BIG difference in where they stand. People can put up with "growing pains", they can't put up with proven "crap" - and I'm talking on a professional baseball playing ability. But if people are booing the front office for not getting a Coco Crisp, if that is what people are arguing... ...then they should boo both "growing pains" and "unproven crap" SouthsideDon and myself have both said the following: We're not calling anyone racist. Put words in our mouth if you want. Here I am, I'm white and I consider myself a well-intentioned guy. I still find myself thinking along racial lines at certain times. I cant help it. I'm saying the fans did this as well with Wise and then heard each other kind of letting out a boo after TWO at-bats...and it reached a groundswell. Pretty soon it was happening each at-bat.

Well this is where I differ from the southsidedon posts because Dye being traded at this age has no bearing on anything. I'm white, and I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of franchises have a situation where there are second or third tier talent white players that are seen as this hardworking, grinder class...... .....and there are players of color that fit that same bill and aren't embraced as easily. I agree with those that say Crede has taken his lumps on this board - I guess my point is less in reference to the people posting here as opposed to the people booing at US Cellular. I think the type of person that posts here is (in many cases) different than the majority of US Cellular attendees. This is just a feeling I get though. Also I'm kind of surprised that so few people here want to touch the topic, some saying send it to Filibuster. I dont see the danger in merely talking.

To those attacking SouthsideDon with no real substance behind their defense.... let me ask this: What are your thoughts of Brian Scalabrine and his popularity in Boston? Granted, that is taken to kind of a circus level where they're almost making fun of him...... ....but if you scale it back it helps inform the Crede vs. Dye thing. Both those guys are quiet personality wise, so there has to be some reason why there's a difference in the way they're treated. Both were clutch guys, one perhaps more so in some of the biggest moments of the franchise's history. One has a longer stretch of consistent, important numbers put up (granted w/ more health) Yet the other undeniably has that cult status...to a substantially greater degree I would say. I dont think of this as "most fans are racist." It's just that race affects what we do even despite our intentions, b/c the country has such a history with it. It's engrained in us. I'm not gonna say that SouthsideDon's argument is without holes, but how bout take on this one: Wise was booed, some say, as a proxy-boo of the front office and Ozzie. He was an unproven leadoff guy yet thrust out there. Then why no booing of Getz? Fewer previous major league at-bats than Wise. Their most recent year of minor league numbers were comparable if I remember correctly. Getz is still a sign that this front office under-filled the roster.

Wise has a Grade 3 shoulder separation - i guess that's the worst one?

Any team that would claim Brian would immediately slot him as a backup outfielder, with the thought of maybe his bat one day coming around. Any team that was thinking of picking up Owens would need to have an undeniable hole at leadoff, as well as a spot in the OF. He's an experiment you'd get in hopes that his career OBP would somehow kick up 20 points. His arm isnt worth it as a 4th OF. Teams arent willing to claim their leadoff spot is dead this early in the year. All but us perhaps!

Well I guess that wipes out the need for fearing the organization has a huge Owens mancrush.

Well they should reunite here, once all our $$ comes off the books. green of course.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4063800 eh?

hehe - hawk wont say 'your what hurts?' to a cy young winner. i'd be surprised at least.

We cant really talk about their personal lives since we're mostly just reaching when that gets into the discussion. Another problem with attacking the "old regime" Sox development system. Isnt it the same old regime that developed Rowand and Crede? Those are the very examples KHP cites of guys who got needed ML at-bats until they came around. Crede's a 3B and those guys get a long leash if they can field it. OF is a different animal. Rowand had to come in and prove himself in a hurry. At even a younger age, Aaron showed in his first 600 at-bats that he was ready for a wider array of pitching than Anderson did/has.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 06:47 PM) No, BA never at any time looked worse than Owens. BA had nice Springs in 2007, 2008, and 2009 yet broke as a 4th OF all three seasons. You have a selective memory here. If you can find the old ST stats, look them up. I've been riding on the Jerry Owens/Darin Erstad Hate Train for a long time so I know. Which is the better predictor of MLB regular season success? 1) Actual MLB regular season at-bats, albeit sporadic ones 2) Spring Training success, where hitters are facing pitchers who won't be on the team...or perhaps are more established but experimenting with pitches and/or consciously saving their best in some way. I only ask because it sounds like your argument is that it's #2. Definitely clarify though if that's putting words in your mouth.

QUOTE (daa84 @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 06:38 PM) I just hope to god Ozzie doesnt play him more than 1 start in the 15 days Wise is out From what i was reading it's usually a 6 to 8 week healing time for something like that.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 06:20 PM) And anyway, what is done is done. BA is who he is. He has the potential to become better through regular playing time, but even if he doesn't, he's still better than what we have right now. It's not rocket surgery. I guess the one thing that just irks me is the implicit notion that Brian would be better with more ML playing time (has had 600 at-bats) and yet the complete impossibility of Owens improving on his already better major league stats (was given 380 at-bats). But the thing is I'll foremost look at the player as controller of his destiny. Owens cant stick in the majors because he is a slap-hitter that hasnt proven enough as a basestealer considering his speed. There are things Anderson wasnt ever going to do, and wont ever do. Both have huge huge holes.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Apr 13, 2009 -> 04:45 PM) Whatterya sayin' there Nostrodamus?....he'll burst onto the MLB scene? No prediction there in my post, from anywhere I can see. The stars have aligned to get him a major league slot when he totally didnt deserve it. Everything to come is TBD of course.

Stone holds Hawk's feet to the fire. The negative aspects of Hawk are held in check so far, and I hope it continues throughout the year. Also, Stone provides enough cynicism to kind of abort some of Hawk's blind excitement. I think announcers need to provide a little ra-ra, but with DJ alongside him HH had free reign to just pump the Sox fan up over informing him/her I'm one that actually think HH offers a lot when on his game. In the past Ive actually liked him more when we were losing a game.