Felix

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:54 PM) Aaron Rowand (22 years old, .758 OPS in AA) = Called up by the Sox in 2001. Brian Anderson (23 years old, .831 OPS in AAA) = Not ready for the majors, according to Felix. Does that seem screwed up to anyone else? You've said this something like three times now. Good job. Would you like a cookie or something?

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:53 PM) You are all for trading Rowand for a big bat, yet you seem to want no part of Anderson starting in CF. Who do you suggest we have start, Timo? JoBo? If we get a big bat, I'm fine with Anderson starting in center. The production in center would basically become a null point if we could get a big bat to DH, so I don't think it would matter. If Rowand is just traded just for the sake of opening a spot up for Anderson, I think it would be a mistake.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:48 PM) Ask any scout, GM or baseball exec., they will all say Anderson has more potential and most of them would say he is a better player right now. There is a reason, he was the Sox's #1 prospect and 1st round pick, they didn't pick him to repeat AAA after a successful season. Nobody here wants to trade Aaron just because he wasn't as good as 2004, we want to trade him because he can help us acquire a power bat such as Delgado or Helton and because our replacement for him is just as good, if not better. And again, I think this is the 5th time I've said this, if it is for a big bat, ok, the trade makes sense. If not, if it were for pitching, as some posts earlier on in this thread indicated, it would be a foolish trade.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:43 PM) He had 16 in 448 at-bats, so that's basically 20 in a 580 at bat season. So, you don't think he will improve as he gains strength. Also, he had surgery to fix a problem in his wrist or hand, so that will help him improve. Until he fully develops, Anderson is unlikely to have a 580 AB season. In 2006, he would likely be batting at the end of the lineup (8th or 9th), where Uribe hit this year. Uribe had 481 AB's on the year, while Crede, who hit 8th for the most part, had 432 (although he was injured).

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:43 PM) Thome had one year in which he was injured. I guess nowadays, that makes a player injury prone. :banghead One injury can be one too many, especially at his age.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:41 PM) .829 with good defense from the center field position isn't good? Its fine, but when its in AAA and you want the guy in the majors, I'm not impressed. And look at what he did from 2001-2003..

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:41 PM) Aaron had 13 in a homers paradise and he had 578 at-bats compared to Anderson's 448. Anderson will improve to a 25 homer guy in a couple years. Show me anything that would lead you to believe that Anderson is capable of becoming a 25 homer guy.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:37 PM) So wait, you admit you haven't seen Anderson play, but yet you could come up with the conclusion that he's still a year away? I have seen his offensive numbers, yet I have not seen his defensive numbers. I trust offensive numbers more than defensive numbers anyway, since basically all defensive stats are flawed. OPS, on the other hand, seems to be a pretty good way of seeing the productivity of a player on offense. QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:37 PM) So that way the Sox miss out on Thome/Delgado? Have you read what I've said? If the trade is for a big bat, I can understand it. I've said this now 4 times in this thread (I consider Thome to be an over the hill, injury prone player however)

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:35 PM) Aaron has never been a good OPB guy, Anderson, although strike out prone, is a better OPB player, provides more power, a higher average and more overall production. His triple A numbers indicate he is ready for the show, and that fact he hit two bombs of King Felix. Anderson can roam CF pretty well and especially if we lose Paulie, we need the offense that Anderson can bring. Don't get fooled by the two homeruns he hit.. he only had 16 in AAA.. And if you want to use that small sample, shall we look at his K:BB ratio in his brief majors stint?

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:29 PM) How will Anderson ever be able to prove that he can provide better offense than Rowand if he doesn't play? Anderson has pretty much proven all he can in AAA already. He hit .295 with a .362 OBP for Charlotte. You must not think he's ready because of 34 major league at bats. What else could it be? Anderson had a .829 OPS in AAA. Is that great? Not really. Put him in AAA for another year, see if his numbers improve, and then think about dealing Rowand. But until he puts up numbers in AAA that show that he will be a better offensive producer than Rowand, I'm not sold on it.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:28 PM) The ultimate trade would be Pierre and Delgado for Rowand, Anderson and someone else, but that's just dreaming. Both Rowand and Anderson are better than Pierre.. no thanks.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 09:11 PM) How so? If involved in a trade for Thome, we will probably lose next to nothing in chemistry. From everything I've read and heard, Thome is great in the clubhouse. We lose a stooge, but we gain about 30 homers. If involved in a trade for Delgado, we added to the growing number of Latino players on the White Sox. I'm sure Delgado would be perfectly happy. I've said this at least twice in this thread. If the trade is for a big bat, ok, it's sensible. If its for extra pitching which would just sit on the bench and wait for an injury, then no, trading Rowand would make absolutely no sense imo. I believe that Rowand will be a key player in the organization next year. Not only will he offer gold glove defense (which I'm not sure Anderson can, although, as said before, I haven't seen him play defense, so I can't judge it), but he has been a good teammate and leader on the team. His offensive numbers were down last year, yes, but as I said before, only 4 rookies all last year had a better OPS than Rowand did, and Brian Anderson likely won't put up numbers similar to Iguchi, Cano, Atkins, or even Swisher, which are the four rookies. I think that Anderson is still another year or so away from being an impact player in the outfield, and I might end up eating crow for this, but until he is ready, and has proven that he can provide better offense than Rowand, I'd stick with A-Row. I also think that Rowand will put in a year closer to '04 than last year was. He's had another year of experience, and I believe that it will make a difference. Likely a ~.800 OPS, although, as I've said before, this is mostly just a random guess.

How about none of the above? Durazo is the only one on that list I would remotely want.. and thats a very small remotely.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 07:24 PM) I hate to break it to you but Rowand isn't a "key player in our organization." Especially not when we have four good outfield prospects in Anderson, Young, Sweeney, and Owens and two of them are center fielders. As of next year, Rowand is a key player in the organization, whether it be with clubhouse chemistry, defense, or with the bat. In future years, he won't be as important to the team, especially with Young, Anderson, Owens, and Sweeney are ready for the majors, however, the closest one who is MLB ready would be Anderson, who is still half a year to a year or so away from being a better fit in the organization that Rowand is. This, of course, is merely my opinion, but whatever.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 07:08 PM) The sox have missed the injury bug, eps. to their SP's. But it's always a chance, esp after a long postseason with extra innings. But saying that getting an ace pitching prospect is a waste?! Come on. Like stud pitchers won't find a spot somewhere, or can't be used at the deadline for trades. Stockpiling quality young arms isn't a luxury IMO. It's a necessity, esp for a team built on pitching and defense And trading for extra pitchers is fine.. if you aren't trading a key player in your organization, which Rowand is imo. Anyway, I'm going to go watch 'Secret Window', so enjoy the debate

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 07:00 PM) Equal. Exactly. Which means that Anderson projects to be not much worse than Rowand. His defense is as good if not better than Rowand's too. I'm not saying he'll hit 40 HR's, but the fact that we have Anderson, makes Rowand expendable. Personally, I havent really seen Anderson play defense, although I have heard a lot about it, so I won't judge how equal it is. Basically, I'm just not confident that a rookie can put up numbers similar, or better, than those which Rowand put up last year, and I also believe that Rowand will put up better numbers next year than he did this year. However, thats just speculation.

I know its a small sample size, but if you are going to criticize Rowand for his lack of plate discipline, which you have all rights to do, I mean, he really needs to work on it, then why not criticize Anderson as well? What indicates that his will be much better than Rowands? In AAA last year, he had a 115:44 strikeouts to walks ratio. As far as I can tell, their plate discipline is basically equal.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 06:50 PM) Fine. Take away those first 12 strikeouts (even though they are still his stats and you shouldn't just subtract stats to prove your point). I didnt take away anything. Sorry if I worded it wrong, but he had 34 AB's on the year. And I know that doesnt mean anything with how he will perform next year, but if he doesn't improve his plate discipline, then what exactly would make him more valuable than A-Row?

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 06:38 PM) Rowand's .736 OPS is easily replaceable. It's not like he was even good offensively this past season. Don't forget his 32 walks and 116 strikeouts. How much worse could Anderson really be? Only 4 rookies in all of baseball had a higher OPS than Rowand last year. And Anderson's 12:0 K:BB ratio in his first 34 AB didnt look pretty.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 06:35 PM) Unless they trade Rowand for a pitcher and that pitcher for a big bat, I agree with you. The main point I was trying to get across is that Rowand is our best trade option because we have a viable replacement for him. We don't really have that at any other position so Rowand is the guy we would have to trade. Well, depends on what you mean by a viable replacement. For the future, yea, we got plenty of outfielders to take his place, but in 2006, I don't think we have someone who can put up his numbers (offensively and defensively). Anderson is a better option down the road assuming he doesn't become Borch (which he won't), but for 2006, I think Rowand is a better option.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 06:34 PM) Why do the Sox need a starter ready to step in for 2006? Isn't that what Haigwood/Broadway are for? If things go as planned, they should be just about ready for '06, with Liotta and Gonzalez also knocking on the door. El Duque, if not traded, will be the our swingman. He'll be the fourth-seventh inning guy incase one of our starters has a rough (and short) outing. If he's relied upon to throw about 80-100 innings, I think that role is perfect for him. He should pitch a whole lot better when he's told to throw two-three innings at a time, rather than a five-seven. It was great seeing him in Boston actually blowing hitters away -- he hit 93! Did he ever hit 93 as a starter? He might have here and there, but I doubt it. You act like our staff is made up of five Kerry Woods'. You can pretty much (knock on wood) pencil in Garland and Buehrle for 200 IP. Freddy Garcia gets knicked up once in a while, but his 162 game average for IP is 222. Contreras hasn't missed any significant time (that I know of) in his career, and McCarthy doesn't strike me as the guy who's going to have arm troubles -- he's not throwing a blazing fastball, and he doesn't rely on a hard slider. He's a fastball/changeup/overhand-curveball pitcher -- not exactly a guy who should throw out his arm. Trading Rowand for a guy who might not even help the team this year (unless that prospect is then shipped off for a bat) is silly, IMO. Exactly.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 06:17 PM) Not everyone is a "clubhouse leader." Sooner or later, you trade guys off your team when they have viable, cheaper replacements. The Rowand / Anderson situation is a perfect example. We need help in other areas (#3 hitter) and Rowand is our best trading chip. Anderson is our top outfield prospect and will have to play sooner or later. I think people get way to attached to certain players and never want to see them leave. Players come and go. It's just a part of baseball. If a Rowand trade is for a big bat, then again, thats ok. But trading a proven centerfielder for another pitcher doesnt make sense. This is what I said in one of my first posts in this thread..

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 05:08 PM) You DO know if you would have stuck Paulie and Dye in there for the same amount of at bats they would have performed the same way, maybe worse. Look at their numbers in their first 50 at bats this year. BA hasnt had the at bats to determine what he will do. All we know is that he adjusts very quickly at each level he has been a player. The MLB is a much different level than AAA or AA. Adjusting in the MLB is a much more difficult thing to do than to adjust in AAA. Personally, I dont see BA doing much next year if he starts.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Nov 11, 2005 -> 05:05 PM) That's honestly the biggest reason I wouldn't want Aaron traded: him, Joe, and AJ are so close and I just don't want to mess with the chemistry of this club. That being said if Aaron could be the center piece for a big bat you obviously have to look into it. Exactly. Its pretty obvious that clubhouse chemistry is a key point in KW's plan, and if we won the WS by going his way, why would he change now?

Remember, this team is also built around the clubhouse attitude. Rowand is a great team player, and one of the favorites in the clubhouse from what I've read. Kenny made a huge deal about not messing with chemistry at the trade deadline, and it worked out for him. I don't really understand why he would trade a clubhouse leader, while he thinks so highly of chemistry.