Felix

QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Nov 22, 2005 -> 04:41 PM) From Eric Neel's column today: "Hint: Chicago Cubs and White Sox fans don't have the equivalent of a Sons of Sam Horn message board." I read the same thing. I almost pissed myself laughing

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Nov 22, 2005 -> 06:05 PM) Besides Buehrle, he is the last player I'd want the Sox to trade. I hope to hell we keep A-Row. seconded.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Nov 22, 2005 -> 12:20 AM) I understand that some people on this board (including Jason) love Bill Mueller. I am not one of those people, if we sign him to play everyday at 3B or 1B I will be pissed. seconded.

Hank Blalock sucks outside of TBIA, can't hit lefties if he tried, and basically is overrated. No thanks.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 21, 2005 -> 04:13 PM) I also don't know where everyone gets this crappy defense from...his speed alone gives him very good range in CF, and a strong arm is not a necessity in CF. Besides, the Sox really didn't have any good arms in the OF last year. Dye had a strong arm, but inaccuracy is a killer. Sammy Sosa has a strong arm in the OF too, but he could never use it effectively due to always missing the cutoff man. Your realize that speed means nothing if you can't get good jumps, right?

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 07:16 PM) And Pierre has hit from the #2 hole. Esp in 2003 with Ozzie when they won the WS er.. he had 52 AB's out of the #2 hole in 2003, compared to 616 as a leadoff hitter.

QUOTE(WSFAN35 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:44 PM) Just so you know, Pierre has consistently hit for average against lefties BETTER than righties. I guess opponents laughed at Pierre and Castillo when the Marlins won their last World Series. My mistake, I was looking at OPS, not average.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:36 PM) Yes , hes in the 2nd tier of defenders. I dont argue with that, he's very solid. But fo the offensive side, maybe this is what it is. See above post, maybe we dont see another season like 2004 on the offensive side, and if we keep him fine with me. We win with him or without him. No, he's a top tier defender (ask just about anyone besides yourself), but second tier overall centerfielder. There is a difference.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:33 PM) The sad think about it, is that Aaron is not a good offensive player. Uribe I believe had more rbi than him or was tied, batting 9th. Have you ever thought that Aarons 23 homer season was a fluke and this is the Aaron that he will always be, not the other way around? I will be glad to see this come to a resolution soon, to see what the Sox intend on actually doing. er.. I didnt say anything about Rowand's offense in that post. I said he was a quality player, there is a huge difference. And yes, perhaps his 2004 season was a fluke, however maybe it wasn't, and even if last year's numbers are a true indicator of his offensive talent, Rowands numbers are better than Pierre's. After 2006, trade Rowand. Brian Anderson will be ready without a doubt, along with a few other prospects which might be ready (Young, Owens). But trading him now, while he's a team leader and great defender, for an arguably worse overall player doesn't sit right with me.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:28 PM) What made u think Iguchi would preform like he did here, he never batted 2nd in Japan. Good players respond to whatever situation they are put in, thats why Aaron is not great or will ever be. Dont hate Aaron, its just guys like you that think hes the best CF in the game which is false. Im not the one with the Aaron pictures all over my signature, im sure you would want him to touch you? I dont think you have ever said a single positive thing about him.. I mean, you don't even think he's a good defensive player. You are likely the only one I have ever talked with that thought that. Rowand is not the best CF in the game, but he's in the second group of good CF's, as someone said earlier in this thread. If A-Row's offense would return to 2004, and his defense maintained its high level, he would be one of, if not the, best CF's in the game. And I didn't think that Iguchi would perform like he did in the #2 spot. I thought he might struggle, but he proved me wrong. Now that he already has a years of experience in the MLB and in the #2 spot specifically, I think he can improve upon last year's success.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:10 PM) Both of you guys have made good points in this discussion. But you can't look at this as a Rowand vs. Pierre situation. There are a lot of variables still to be determined if we do go get Pierre. First, what do we give up to get him. Next, assuming we then move Aaron, what do we get in return for him. It's a matter of how things come together over the off season. Also, if Podsednik gets hurt we'd have Pierre to step into the lead off spot. I'm not crazy about the idea of trading Rowand. I've been supporting him since '03. But knowing Pierre's ability to handle the bat and how Ozzie likes to play the game, I can see why Ozzie would prefer Pierre in the lineup over Rowand. You also have to consider that Ozzie watched Pierre play defense for a full season and has seen Aaron for two. So he knows what each one brings and what their weaknesses are. If Ozzie and Kenny think this team will be better with Pierre in CF than with Rowand, considering any other moves that are made, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. In my mind, thats the equivalent of trading Rowand for a 7th starter. I don't see the point to trade a quality player for people who would step up if a key player got hurt. Yes, if Pods got hurt, we could then have Pierre lead off, but I wouldn't really complain if Ozuna led off and we still had Rowand in center. And I do trust Ozzie and Kenny to an extent. I wasn't too thrilled about the Podsednik trade last year, and they proved me wrong rather quickly, but I think there is a fine balance to maintain with a lineup's power and speed. I think that if you trade too many better offensive players for those who get 50 steals, your team will not be successful. Last year, it looked like Kenny and Ozzie had the right balance, and changing it now, after it proved to be quite successful, worries me the most.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:11 PM) What was all the talk about slugging percentage with Aaron? Iguchi will be a better hitter than Aaron is deeper in the line up. Pierre behind Pods will no doubt be a deadly 1-2 punch. No to metion having Iguchi batting 6th , a guy with pop and that can actually bent when needed to. Not a tough choice there. All specualtion till it happends, if it ever happends. Its not a opinion, just a fact that Iguchi is a better offensive threat than Rowand. I wasn't talking about slugging percentage, I was talking about OPS, which is a players on base percentage plus slugging percentage. A good offensive player has a high OPS, because they can both get on base and hit for some sort of power. Pierre and Pods would be a "1-2 punch" that opponents could laugh at. Neither can hit lefties, and neither are that talented with the bat. If they do get on, then yes, they can run, but they can also get thrown out a hell of a lot, which is not a good thing to have happen when the meat of your order is coming up. Pierre doesn't even hit second in the order. How do we know how he will react to it? Will he like having to sacrifice AB's for the good of the team? These are things we don't know, and increase the risk value in trading for a pricey and crap defensive player. And I'm not comparing Iguchi and Rowand. QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 06:12 PM) Thank God we have a guy named Ozzie as the manager that wants Pierre at the 2 hole rather than a guy named felix that is just in love with Rowand. You obviously don't read my posts before posting. I have stated many times in the past that if we trade Rowand, I'd be fine with it, as long as it adds a big bat. Does Pierre count as a big bat in your opinion? If so, see a doctor. Also, did a guy with a Rowand jersey touch you or something when you were younger? Why do you have so much hate for him?

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 05:33 PM) So we should stunt Iguchi's true offensive production when there is probably a better option available to bat second for us? If we lose Konerko, we will likely need that production. It just doesn't seem very wise to me. Its not really stunting his growth. I believe Iguchi can be a lesser vesion of Carlos Beltran, basically good at most offensive catergories. And yes, I believe he can do this out of the #2 spot in the lineup. Iguchi's power numbers were down last year because he was adapting to the different pitching here in the MLB. In 2006, his power numbers will likely go up as he becomes more comfertable in the #2 spot and in the MLB. His contract has nothing to do with Podsednik. I only point out his contract because he is basically the same player as Podsednik, except with a worse arm, and us acquiring him would also acquire his contract.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 05:17 PM) Okay. Well, let me ask you this. If Iguchi truly has the potential to hit 25+ homeruns like he himself has stated, why waste that potential batting him in the 2-hole where he will often be sacrificing himself to move over Podsednik? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to put Iguchi in the sixth spot in the order where he can swing away and be more of a RBI producer? If you desperatly needed someone on your lineup to hit 25+ homeruns, then yes, it would make sense to put him further down in the order. However, we don't need that. Iguchi had a great year last year out of the #2 spot, and I would rather that than add another Scott Podsednik along with a small power increase from Gooch. Let me ask you this. Would you pay Scott Podsednik whatever Pierre's contract is?

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 05:01 PM) That's not my personal opinion. Pierre strikes out less, he's faster, he steals more bases, and he's a better bunter. Those are all facts. Also, Pierre is a left-handed bat so his natural pull swing would be towards the right side of the infield allowing Podsednik to move from second to third with ease. Iguchi wants to hit homeruns. He also strikes out a lot. He is more suited to be batting sixth in the lineup. Its your personal opinion that Pierre would be better than Iguchi hitting in the #2 hole. And its mine that I would rather Iguchi there.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 04:52 PM) Juan Pierre barely strikes out and almost always hits the ball into play. Iguchi struck out 114 times. While Iguchi is a pretty good bunter, Pierre is one of the best bunters in the MLB. Pierre has much more speed than Iguchi and can steal a lot more bases. Because of these reasons, I think it's more than reasonable to say that Pierre would be a better #2 hitter for us than Iguchi. Thats your personal opinion. I see a #2 hitter who can control his bat to move the leadoff man onwards, while still being able to hit for some power if needed. I like having Gooch in the two hole, and I think that he would be superior to Pierre hitting there.

Did you know that the White Sox traded Carlos Lee to the Brewers for Scott Podsednik and Luis Vizcaino?

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 03:54 PM) Rowand44 was trying to explain this earlier to you. Would Juan Pierre be better in his role on the team than Iguchi was last year? Personally...I'd say yes...that is completely arguable. No, I don't think so. There is a huge difference between the two on defense, and I'm not really sure what you are looking at if you think Pierre is anywhere near Rowand's caliber. Ask any expert, they will tell you the same. Pierre is basically the same player as Podsednik, except with a worse arm.

QUOTE(Spiff @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 02:48 AM) not a quote, but i felt everyone should see this courtesy of toothpastefordinner.com toothpastefordinner is great

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 11:17 AM) I'm just going to stick this here: Since we have all but packed Damaso's bags for South Florida, who does Kenny intend to fill that void with? Looking at the lefties in the system, it would appear nothing doing there. None of those kids seem really ready for the bigs, unless, of course, someone like Haig were to impress in ST. Would we go into the season with Neal as the only LH in the pen, or, are we looking at a FA signing? Personally, I'd probably go into next year with only one LH, and bring up Baj to fill in the void in the bullpen. However, they'll probably add another lefty through trade or free agency.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 11:07 AM) What about total steals? Get of your fanatsy Rowand Island and come to reality. Pierr by far has more speed, can bunt for hits, walk, does not strike out as much as Rowand and plays a team ball style of game. Im sure if Pierre batted higher in the order his numbers like slugging percentage would be more. Try Runs scored also. Iguchi in Rowands spot of the line up , is a super upgrade. Talking about the whole picture, not just wonder boy. Oh , did I mention Pierre can bunt for hits as well as sacrafice. Sometimes I dont think you even read all the posts before replying.. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=965412 And yes, you did mention that he can bunt for hits and sacrifice, but you know what? We already have that. Thats exactly what Podsednik is. We only need one Scott Podsednik. And I have nothing wrong with trading Rowand. If its for a real offensive asset, then ok, lets do it. Put him in a trade for Delgado, and I won't complain. But trading away a cheaper, and arguably better player (Rowand is far superior defensively, the real question is about their offense, and I, obviously, think that Rowand is better offensively as well) for Pierre doesn't make sense to me. What happens if the money that the Sox spend on overpaying Pierre makes it impossible to sign Konerko? Would his ability to steal 50 bases while get thrown out ~20 times really be worth it? No. Keeping Rowand for another year makes sense. After 2006, trade Rowand off, or keep him as a 4th outfield and give the centerfield job to Anderson or Young (not really sure when Young is projected to be major league ready), but trading him now just doesn't sit right with me, especially since he'll be wanting to prove that 2004 wasn't a fluke.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 11:04 AM) OPS isnt the end all, be all stat. No, but its one of the best for showing how productive an offensive player is.

QUOTE(Soxpranos @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 10:35 AM) Slugging? Pierre is not a slugger, either is Rownad who was suppose to be one. Try putting all the offensive numbers down like steals, stike out ratio and dont forget moving guys over on bunts something you seen in game 4 of the world series Aaron does verry well. Like steals? Rowand is a more successful stealer, does that count? Also, tell me what a good offensive player does, since you obviously don't think having a higher slugging + on base percentage makes up a good one. Pierre is a better leadoff hitter, but is not the better offensive player.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 08:55 AM) as far as all the fielding stats being thrown around, comparing Pierre and Arow, most are useless. Andruw Jones was 10th in range factor and 16th in zone rating, far behind guys who are known to be very inferior to Jones. Sometimes scouts and professional coaching staffs have a more accurate gauge on a player's defensive abilities. This time I'll wait on what the sox do with this situation. BaseballProspectus' RAR and RAA are pretty good from my experience, as is UZR (which isn't public anymore, or something), but yes, all fielding stats are flawed.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Nov 20, 2005 -> 08:47 AM) No offense but it's kind of ridiculous to compare ops of a hitter who hits down in the order and was counted on for some power to comparing it to a leadoff hitter. Leadoff hitters aren't going to hit for power, it's not there job. Juan has a better career obp, steals more bases, and scores more runs. You really can't compare hard numbers with Juan and Aaron because they're in different roles for their respective teams. IMO Juan is a more valuable offensive player then Aaron but Aaron is a better defender...how much better I'm not really sure. Like I've said, I want to see Juan play some D as I really don't recall him playing CF that much even though I've seen him play a bunch of times. Although slight, Aaron has a better stolen base percentage than Pierre (I would still take Pierre's ~40 more stolen bases, but still, he gets caught a hell of a lot as well). As for the runs, thats purely team dependant, and as you said, its kind of ridiculous to compare a player who hits in front of the meat of the lineup (Pierre) than one who hits at the bottom of the lineup (Rowand). And OPS shows how good the offensive player is. It doesn't show how good the player fits into the system, which is what you are saying. Rowand is a better offensive player according to the numbers. Is he a better leadoff hitter? No. Is he a better #2 guy? No. But is he a better overall offensive producer? Yes. Pierre has almost 2000 more AB's than Rowand, yet only has 14 more extra base hits than Rowand does. In fact, if Rowand had the same amount of AB's as Pierre, his overall numbers would trump Pierre's. We already have Juan Pierre on this team, his name is Scott Podsednik. I love Pods, and I love what he's done for this team, but we don't need two of him. The only way, I would ever trade for Pierre for this team would be if we also acquired Delgado from the Marlins, but past that, no thanks.