WCSox

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) As for the Buehrle contract, I truly believe Kenny realizes he's going to have to offer Jon whatever he offers Mark, and he doesn't want to have them both with full NTC clauses. And that's why Kenny's not going to offer Jon an extension if he and Mark agree to terms.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) Also, given the restrictions the Sox place on signing pitchers they need to trade Garland ASAP. He's not going to sign a 3 year deal either and having him in 2008 isn't do anything for the Sox. Every day that goes by diminishes his value. He should be able to bring back someone like Kemp. If the Sox re-sign Mark, they have a legitimate shot in '08. I wouldn't trade Jon just yet if that happens. But I wouldn't be opposed to Kenny dealing Jose ASAP, even if we have to eat half of his remaining deal.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:25 PM) KW was just on Channel 7, saying that he is hopeful a deal can be reached. He said he wishes that it wouldn't have become public, but he understands that it has and that he is gonna have to answer questions about it. He said Buerhle's camp wants to get the deal done and so does the SOX. Well, that's some good news. Thanks for the update. QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:13 PM) Thanks LV I'm not taking it hard bro. I was just wanting everyone to know who I was disagreeing today with, that even though we disagree, I still respect what their opinions are. I know sometimes I may come across as a know it all, or my opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong, at least that's what my friends say. I'm not like that at all, and sometimes I swear a little too much also. No foul, no harm.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:04 PM) Dream away, but it ain't happenin'. Remember, Reinsdorf's first and best love is baseball (only using him because he is the face of the Board). That is true, but JR ain't getting any younger (and hasn't Einhorn had health problems recently?). And they already won the Series. That said, I agree that it isn't happening any time soon, unfortunately.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:00 PM) CORRECT! But someone earlier in the thread said he is leaving 30 -40 million on the table by signing with the sox, comparing it to Zitos contract which I believe runs for 7 years. What does the length of contract matter when all of the money is guaranteed?

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 02:17 PM) Well I like my opinion to be heard I guess. Yeah, I guess that you do.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:18 PM) Oh gosh.. you'd have to pry the front door keys from several of their cold dead stiff hands. Hey, we can all dream, right?

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:59 PM) Truth hurts!! People don't like to hear it I guess. No, people just don't like to hear it 20 times in the same thread. Seriously, if you're THAT fed up with the Sox front office, go jump on the Red Sox bandwagon.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) He is locking up starting pitching. He is just locking it up from the wrong end in JV and JC. I would rather he start by locking up MB and JG first.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:22 PM) My anger towards KW is not only directed at him. I understand he represents JR and the Board, believe me I have anger towrds them as well. To this day I refuse to support the Bulls or anything related to the Bulls after JR dismantled that team and chased away MJ and Phil. So my anger is not only against KW. The way they do business by not signing pitchers to long term deals, which 4 years to me isn't long to begin with, their not signing big name free agents, isn't a good strategy. Especially being in a big market. That's just the way I look at it. Well, that's not going to change any time soon. So you might as well jump on the Yankees/Mets/Red Sox bandwagon.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 01:04 PM) If anything I'm too passionate about this team. You don't say?!

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) There's two sides to this... *IF* the NTC is the only issue holding the contract up, then there was something MUCH bigger going to happen then we all realize anyway. Yep, like the current ownership minimizing future debt in preparation for a sale of the team.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:49 PM) From the Whitesox website, which would seem to be pretty credible to me "The two sides appear to have reached an impasse over the inclusion of a no-trade clause covering the entire four years of a reported $56 million deal" That's copied and pasted from elsewhere. What does it tell you that all of the MLB web sites look almost excatly the same? Perhaps that the Sox have minimal control over content? If you want to believe that Mark will gladly accept $70 million less than Zito because some anonymous source told the Trib so and because the story made it's way to MLB's news wire, go right ahead. I'm staying away from the Kool-Aid. Outside of Lamie Navarro, who was a complete disaster, how many huge contracts have Ron Schueler or Larry Himes given to veteran pitcher in his mid/late 20's? Do you understand now why your anger towards Kenny Williams over this issue is misplaced? If you want to get pissed off at somebody, direct your anger towards the Board of Directors because this is TYPICAL of what they've done for the past 20 years. Agreed about the drafts, but those trades to get Freddy, Jose, Danks, Vazquez, and Thome were far from "questionable."

QUOTE(michelangelosmonkey @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:42 PM) So call me a front office guy if you want...truth is I'm just a monkeyboy who loves the Sox, am glad my dad didn't die before he got to see them win, and think Kenny has a plan. ok? Whatever happened to just being a Sox fan, regardless of what one thinks of the front office?

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:39 PM) You have a dominant ace very good, consistent pitcher who dominates occasionally in Buerhle. Fixed

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 12:31 PM) You are the one drinking the Kenny Williams Kool aid!!! I'd say that you're the one drinking the Mark-agreed-to-a-deal-that-was-$50-$70-million-below-his-market-value Kool-Aid. (1) I'm not arguing that the Sox won't trade them. (2) The fact that you don't know who actually calls the shots in the front office shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, it was really stupid for the Sox to trade Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Esteban Loaiza for two starting pitchers who helped us win the WS. The Sox would've been a Yankees-like Dynasty if they would've held onto the studs that their farm system has produced over the past five years! My God, your posts are terrible.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:50 AM) So taking what you say, if we would have choked away the division in 05 and not made the playoffs, we still would have been winners, but if we would have made the playoffs and lost you would have preferred that?? WOW!!! I don't get that at all. No, that's not what I'm saying. You need a new pair of reading glasses. Oh, and adding A BAT would solve Mark and Jose's pitching problems. Great solution! The Bills were laughed at and called chokes, just like the Colts were prior to February. QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:58 AM) How can you say that??? I'm not saying Buerhle and Garland are future hall of famers. If they keep winning and putting up numbers for the next 8-10 years I believe they could be considered future HOF'ers. Mark and Jon will cost somewhere between $120-150 million in guaranteed money. That isn't going to happen here, nor should it.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:40 AM) Well, I think quite a bit of it was luck as well. Maddux/Glavine are sure-fire hall of famers, and Smoltz is probably as well. I understand they locked these guys up, but our situation isn't synonymous with theirs. Absolutely. NO team is going to carry three future-HOF pitchers in their 10 most productive years at the same time these days. It's financially impossible.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:36 AM) I was just responding to someone who brought up the Braves Org. But to say you don't know how it happened, here's a little insight. They had three young pitchers that they locked up to long term deals, and built around them. I think that's a pretty good model to start with. Did those three young pitchers require $200 million in guaranteed money back then?

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:23 AM) At least they made ot to the playoffs in 83, 93, 2000.!!! You would rather not even make the playoffs?? That's a loser's mentality. No, a loser's mentality is being excited about making the playoffs and not winning a single playoff series. As a Colts fan, I can tell you that it gets old very quickly. You're right. He absolutely blew it when he failed to trade for Johan Santana and Chris Carpenter. What in the hell was he supposed to do when his best two starting pitchers weren't performing??? The Bills appeared in four straight Super Bowls and nobody considered them a marquee franchise. I wouldn't say that. They blew us away in the '90s, but they haven't done squat since then.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 11:04 AM) But KW says he doesn't base winning on just a good record. Him and Ozzie both said last year, big deal we won 90 games, we didn't win the division. So to me that is failure. 2005 was a great and MAGICAL year. The key word in that sentence is MAGICAL. If you want to be considered a great GM you have to sustain making the playoffs every year or at least every other year. Sort of like the Twins, A's, Boston, Angels. Um, sort of like two teams who haven't won crap in the past 15 years and two who haven't done any better than us? How MAGICAL was it for you to watch the Sox get swept out of the playoffs in 2000 and to watch them lose to inferior teams in '93 and '83? Personally, I didn't enjoy it very much. Yeah, damn Kenny for not replacing the "anchor" of his rotation who was getting hit all over the place last summer. Oh, what, that's the guy who Kenny is supposed to re-sign now. My bad. What about John Schuerholz, who is consdiered one of the best GMs in baseball? He's only 1 out of 17.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:48 AM) That was something that I asked a couple of weeks ago... Who, that the Sox got rid of, has proven them wrong in their history of not giving out long term pitching contracts? Yep, and the one veteran FA pitcher that they gave the big contract to in that era was a complete bust. That might influence their negotiation strategy a bit as well.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:30 AM) Levine was saying that on the first day all of this started, but plenty of talk and action has come out of both camps to make it pretty clear that they were at least talking last week. That's in contrast to what Mark's own agent was saying in the middle of last week. What the media reports is all conjecture and possibly false information intentionally fed to them at this point.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:31 AM) Besides 2005 he doesn't have a history of winning anything. there isn't one thing this guy has won besides in 2005. And that is with having the most talent in our division for all them years. He has one division title and one pennant and one WS champioship. That's one more WS championship than any other GM in the past 90 years. But, yeah, he hasn't done anything outside of that. :oldrolleyes Also anchored by Jose Contreras and Freddy Garcia, two big-name FAs that Kenny brought into town. Let's also not forget about the contributions of El Duque, Hermanson, Cotts, Politte, and Jenks - all acquired in the KW era. I agree that Kenny's done a bad job with our farm system. But when he assumed GM duties of a middle-market, haven't-won-in-forever franchise, the moves that he made where overwhelmingly positive and he got the job done. He may not be the right GM from here on out, but he was definitely the right guy 6 1/2 years ago. If you have been following the Sox for 30+ years, you should have a better idea of who really pulls the strings in the front office. I'll give you a hint: It's not Kenny Williams.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 10:13 AM) Haven't both sides agreed that it comes down to a complete NTC. Is either side denying these reports? All I've seen is KW regurgitating a policy of no contracts with full NTCs. That policy is most likely JR & Co's and has probably been around since the mid-'80s. Given that Kenny wasn't quoted as saying anything about the alleged 4/56 deal, his comments about the NTC might not be linked to it at all. And from what I've read, Mark's agent had even denied being in recent negotiations with KW in the middle of last week. I see no credible evidence that the two parties are even talking right now.