WCSox

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) I just don't think its here Hell, I HOPE it's not here. He was a phenominal signing three years ago, but he won't have worth half of whatever deal he accepts from here on out. We'll gladly take the draft picks, even if JD foolishly accepts arbitration.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 10:07 AM) You still can offer a player arbitration and basically put if he accepts it than you work out a one year deal with him (that goes through an arbitrator). Maddux did this a couple times. You can also accept arbitration and than sign a one year deal with the club (as to go past the arbitration process). The reason the Sox offer arb is to ensure that they get draft picks for Dye who signs elsewhere. However, you do run the risk of Dye accepting arbitration and coming back to Chicago for a year. My question is will the White Sox be timid in the FA market because they offer Dye arb (if in fact they don't deal him). God, I would love to find a way to get Kemp in some sort of package involving Dye and prospects or Dye and a reliever or Dye and a starter. God, get me Kemp as one of our 3 outfielders next year. Didn't know that. I'm assuming that most established vets don't accept arbitration offers. I don't think that JD accepts it either, especially with his skills in clear decline. No reason for him to risk having another sub-par season and losing millions on the FA market afterwards. My feeling is that he'll sign a three-year deal at about $24 million elsewhere.

Holy crap! I went hiking yesterday and was completely out of the loop. Wow, I've never been more happy to have been wrong about something!

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 09:35 AM) It is 2 years. Dye is virtually assured of being a 2 pick FA. The real question is whether or not the Sox will offer arbitration (I think they'd be foolish not, but they don't seem to like to do it). Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly, but hasn't Dye been in the league a bit too long to be arbitration-eligible? And no way that he signs anything in the $6 million/year range. And there's no way that the Sox re-sign him. Thanks for '05 and '06, JD, but you're going to have to find a new home next year.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 5, 2007 -> 10:51 PM) KW should have kept these negotiations quiet....as it's his job that's likely going to be at stake in the long run. So you're saying that KW was responsible for leaking numbers that make the Sox front office look very bad? That doesn't make any sense. More likely, it was somebody in Mark's camp. It's amazing what Kenny gets blamed for these days. :oldrolleyes

QUOTE(joeynach @ Jul 5, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) Jose had been throwing 95+ for Cuba national team for years. He has been throwing longer than we know and when in Cuba was throwing year round. I think its about time it all caught up with him. Jose can hardly throw 90 at this point and hes probably doing so for a reason. Hes old, tired, hurt, sore, whatever. It doesn't matter, the point is Jose's baseball career is in Jeopardy with his inability to throw a fastball better than 89 mph, and I think everyone in baseball knows it. He is defiantly showing the signs that all the years of power pitching, and pitching year round in Cuba and the MLB is catching up with him. Not only that, but I'll bet that he was over-used and downright abused frequently down there. I remember reading somewhere that Castro INSISTED that Jose pitch back-to-back games (the second on one day's rest) during one of the championship series. It's amazing that Jose was still able to be a rock for us down the stretch in '05, much less be almost unhittable at the same time. It's too bad that Jose's best days were wasted in Cuba. But it's nice that he and his family finally got here and are able to enjoy the freedom that they deserve and the cash that Jose earned.

QUOTE(russ99 @ Jul 5, 2007 -> 09:16 AM) Contreras is 40 years old tops. Probably more likely to be 1-2 years over his stated age of 35. Most of what I've read agrees that Contreras is about 37. I'm wondering if KW is stalling on extending MB because other GMs are unwilling to deal for Jose (even if the Sox eat, say, half of his remaining salary).

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 04:14 PM) Isn't terribly relevant is just about the same. I can cherry pick stats with McCarthy and what I said was if McCarthy was in the rotation and Vazquez not in 2006, the White Sox still would have finished in 3rd place. Do you not agree? As long as you agree that has little to do with Javy. Too bad that Javy's rock-solid first half this year is also getting dismissed by much of Soxtalk as "irrelevant" because the offense and bullpen aren't pulling their weight.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 03:52 PM) So where Contreras was at the time he signed the extension, in the middle of winning 17 decisions, leading the team to a world championship is irrelavant? You say this right after you make a point of saying Vazquez's contract is perfectly legitimate. Be consistent. And I never said that what Contreras did was "irrelevant." LOL, I don't know where in the hell you're getting that from. What IS irrelevant is your comparison of their contracts. And for the record, I was all for KW giving Jose that extension and still don't regret his decision. But I do think that he needs to shop him ASAP. And speaking of "irrelevant," why are you comparing McCarthy's ERA over 84 2/3 IP out of the bullpen last year to Vazquez's ERA over 202 2/3 IP? Perhaps a more "relevant" stat would be comparing Vazquez's ERA right now to McCarthy's wretched 6.17 ERA. Oh, but that wouldn't jive with your "Javy sucks" argument, right? :oldrolleyes

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 03:20 PM) That's because people don't think that $12M a year for a 4.5 to 4.9 ERA is a good allocation of resources. I'd be happy if Vazquez ended up pitching up to his contract, but let's see what his numbers are this year and next. You don't spend that much money on a #4 starter. Maybe not if you have a kick-ass farm system and an ownership group who will shell out $70 million contracts without blinking. But if you're the Sox, that rule may not apply. Also consider that Ted Lilly and Gil Meche's contracts have more guaranteed money than Vazquez's extension and that Javy is a better pitcher than both. A 3.95 ERA at The Cell is excellent. And given that quality starting pitching is much more valuable than good-but-not-great CFs, I'd much rather have Javy than Chris Young.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 03:14 PM) Contreras was part of a world championship team. In fact, a huge reason why the White Sox won. He was good enough to be the White Sox opening day pitcher this season, and had a stretch of 5 or 6 starts where his ERA was in the low 2s after the opening day debacle. If Vazquez did that, all his backers would point to that as to why he should be on the White Sox until he's Contreras' age. Acquiring Vazquez was KW getting another toy for winning it all. He wasn't needed. McCarthy could have been in the rotation last year and the White Sox would have easily finished in 3rd place. Vazquez was pretty bad until he turned it on when the games really didn't matter. For that he gets an extension, and can't be traded to west coast teams. He will be getting paid more than Contreras, who has shown in the past that he can assume the #1 slot on a championship team. Even Vazquez's most ardent admirers point out how publications rate him a better than average #4. Besides, there is one more year left of obligation to Vazquez than there is to Contreras. At least Contreras was signed after he helped the team win and was dominant. When Contreras was signed, did you comment in the thread? It would be interesting to see if you liked the signing. (1) McCarthy sucked last year and is currently sucking big-time this year. He would not have been an adequate #5 starter. (2) Even last season, Vazquez's mediocre ERA was still in the top 30 of AL starters. That's not bad for a #4 or even a low-tier #3 pitcher, especially with his strikeout numbers. This season, he could be a legitimate #2 on most teams. (3) Vazquez's contract is perfectly legitimate for a veteran with his numbers, skill set, and durability. It stabilizes the middle of a Sox rotation that may be losing its two best pitchers by the end of next year and has nothing coming up through its farm system. (4) Contreras is rapidly approaching the end of his career, so what he did a year ago isn't terribly relevant. He's had injury problems and has lost about 4-5 mph off of his fastball in the past 1-1.5 years. Vazquez is the much, much better option from here on out and deserves more money.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 03:00 PM) Vazquez means either Buehrle or Garland is gone, but Contreras has no effect on them. Is that it, or are you just throwing this on Vazquez because you don't like him? Vazquez means that the Sox were preparing to move on without either Jon or Mark, and possibly both. This ownership group almost never gives veteran starters four- or five-year deals. If the reported 4/56 number is accurate, it most likely caught KW and JR off guard. Earlier this year, most people would've assumed that Mark would accept nothing less than 5/70.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 01:28 PM) Should Ozzie have said it? Meh, I'm indifferent, but it's spot on. If something HAS to be said, you know that Ozzie's going to be first in line. Yeah, judging from some of the recent posts here, it's difficult to believe that the Sox won a World Series just recently and that Kenny Williams significantly contributed to it.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:59 PM) I'm pretty sure KW had a little better than a 4.30 ERA in mind when he traded for him. A 4.30 ERA would put him in the Top 20 of qualified AL starters. That's not bad at all.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) You mean a 3.8 ERA I was erring on the side of caution. He's having a rock-solid year and is getting zero respect here.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 12:45 PM) I can see it being around 4.00. Isn't Jenks eligible for arbitration after the year? Not until '09

I can't wait until Vazquez walks off the field in late September with a respectable 4.30 or so ERA this year and shuts up a lot of people here.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 11:25 AM) Fans continuing to pay for a s***ty product because the park is pretty and the neighborhood is building up... Sounds like the fans of some other team.... I hope that NSS72 is right, but I believe that Steff's prediction is more realistic. Losing 10,000 season-ticket holders in one year (AFTER a 90-win season) does not paint an optimistic picture. When the Sox were OK-but-nothing-special just five years ago, they struggled to draw 2 million fans. If the Sox become mired in mediocrity again, that's where I expect the fan support to be again in '09.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) Well, keep in mind that two things were driving last night's attendance: 1) pre-sold season tickets; and 2) the possibility of it being Mark's final start on the southside. Yep. QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:22 AM) Years ago, I would have agreed. But right now, I think they would do it if the deals were right. Why, you ask? Here is why... Attendance at last night's game, a Monday night against the mighty Orioles: 35000+ Even 2 years after the WS, and with the team playing like crap... people show up. As long as the attendance stays up, which it looks like it will, and the money keeps flowing in... this club will spend the money. Especially on young pitching talent. It wasn't more than a few years back that there were only 4 games a year where they drew 35k - 3 Cubs games and Opening Day. I agree that JR & Co. will definitely spend if ticket sales stay high. However, history (even recent history) has suggested that they won't unless they're competitive. I could be wrong... heck, I HOPE I'm wrong, but I don't see that changing just because of '05. My feeling is that JR and KW are going to look and see what the season ticket base is like next Spring. If it goes down significantly, my feeling is that next year will be Jon's last in Chicago.

After winning the WS, I think that Kenny envisioned a 2-3 year window to repeat with the same core players. I think that he's anticipating major turnover between next year and '09, with Garland being part of that turnover.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:09 AM) I think they would absolutely extend them both at that price. They just want to know that they can move one or both of them should something come up. When in the past have the Sox spent $56 million on ONE pitcher? Sorry, but I think there's no way in hell that they commit $100 million to two players.

QUOTE(spiderman @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 10:00 AM) Garland isn't a lesser player - Than Mark? I'm not sure I'd say that. They're not going to extend both of these guys - that'd be at least $110 million in guaranteed money.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 3, 2007 -> 09:40 AM) They can also try Robin - who they actually didn't try to nickel and dime, but rather did nothing. Ozzie, also if they want to get picky. Meh, Ozzie was done by '97. Robin was productive for three or four more years after that, but I can understand them being hesitant to give him $32 million to a 30-year-old 3B when the guy projected to be the next Mike Schmidt was in their farm system.

An 18-month window? That's a heck of a window. Why wouldn't a 6-month or 3-month window be acceptable? I still have no idea what to make of this, but the fact that Kenny finally acknowledged that they ARE talking right now and that he's "optimistic" make me feel a little better.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:56 PM) actually I think he will offer them an extension if he signs mark. Most likely he will do this in the off season. Tehn he will get rid of both jose and vasquez. build around Burhel garland and danks. Jon is most likely not going to accept another three-year extension. Given that, Mark and Jon will cost the Sox somwehere around $110 million in guaranteed money. Given that the Sox almost never sign pitchers to four-year deals, giving TWO of them four-year deals would be absolutely unprecedented. QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:56 PM) It seems like there's a 99 pct chance that Buehrle and Garland won't re-sign with the Sox now. At least we'll get to watch Vazquez strike out 7 each game and give up 4 runs. Vazquez's 3.95 ERA and 1.14 WHIP are looking pretty good right now.