StrangeSox

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:59 PM) So the AP are liars, and all the innocent bloggers without agendas are telling the truth. Nope. The AP is reporting the story as they were told; the claims of violence appear to come from the police themselves. That's not an independent source.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:56 PM) [/b] That is the whole question right there. Especially when you are way outnumbered. Even if we grant the AP story as 100% true, you still have a very small portion of people throwing bottles or rocks at armed police in riot gear and pretty large numbers. Firing large amounts of tear gas and rubber bullets, both of which have some degree of lethality, into an almost entirely peaceful crowd who does not appear to be starting an offensive is a disproportionate response.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:49 PM) The Tea Party protests were not of the same nature. There are definitely similarities, but none of them tried to "occupy" anything, and that is the key difference here. I can't believe I am defending the Tea Party, but in this case, I am. The idea that somehow lefty protestors are more likely to be violent is a joke, as the opposite is probably true. But it IS true that this particular movement has much more often chosen illegal methods of protest (mostly about trespassing and traffic obstruction and what not), than the Tea Party ones have. Right, there hasn't really been any aspect of civil disobedience in the Tea Party protests/gatherings. I'm not sure about the claim that leftist protesters aren't more likely to be violent is true, either. Mostly because you don't see the radical ultranationalist rightwing elements (secessionist/Aryan nation militia group types) at Tea Party rallies, but also radical leftism doesn't exactly have a non-violent history. Note that you need to start really dissecting apart "the American left" into leftists and liberals to see that granularity.

It sure as hell doesn't look like there's many (if any at all) people assaulting the cops in every video and photo available. It sure as hell does look like a large amount of the police force began firing on the crowd, whether or not it was provoked.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:47 PM) Yes. oh, ok.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:42 PM) Yes, because we should believe the Salon blogger over the f***ing Associated Press report that says otherwise. AP report : Police were met with violence, later that night the protestors inched closer and closer to the police line prompting gas, etc. Only evidence appears to be police claims, not independent verification, so incredibly skeptical. 1% of protesters throwing bottles at police doesn't get the other 99% to jump in; 1% of police firing rubber bullets and teargas into the crowd generally gets the other 99% of the police involved. A forceful response provoked by bottle-throwing can still be a disproportionate response of force.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) And ignoring the history of violence in left wing movements is just as ignorant. Especially when we know that there are known illegal activities being planned and staged behind the scenes to intentionally draw attention and sympathy to the movement. We know this?

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:42 PM) Yes, because we should believe the Salon blogger over the f***ing Associated Press report that says otherwise. The salon blogger was assaulted by police for the crime of videotaping them. Nothing in the AP report contradicts that.

Here's a report from an independent journalist at the Occupy Oakland protests, including video of her being assaulted by police for the crime of videotaping them. http://www.salon.com/2011/10/25/occupy_oakland_open2011/ That's why questioning that tries to absolve police from culpability for their actions in response to non-violent crowds gets met with indignant dismissal. It portrays an ignorance of the history of police action at leftist protest movements.

Why bother, the protesters are presumed guilty and clearly intentionally got themselves gassed and skull-fractured.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:24 PM) That's not what this report said. That report said that they were pelted on Tuesday morning; the Iraq war vet who had his skull fractured was shot at by police on Tuesday night. The article does say: but is the appropriate response to that a barrage of tear gas and rubber bullets? Do we know that this occurred in the same area where this man was shot? Do we know that it wasn't an agent provaceteur? Why aren't these questions being asked? What about the video Balta posted, which did not appear to indicate any violent acts towards the police, nor any warning from the police?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) It doesn't mean it, but it certainly begs the question. Of course no one has really asked that question, because the conclusion is instantly that cops love crushing skulls. Some do, yeah. It's a line of work that draws a disproportionate amount of authoritarians by nature. No one's asking the question because there doesn't appear to be any evidence or indication of the protesters intentionally provoking a violent response.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:15 PM) It also brings the question of how much of it was staged and/or induced for TV. The point of a protest is publicity for your cause. Obviously they expected their removal from the park/march to be covered. That doesn't meant they intentionally provoked a violent response.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:11 PM) 1% of people with guns acting irresponsibly is a lot worse than a significant number of people with bottles. "WE.ARE.THE99%!" I was referencing the ongoing theme of the occupations, not trying to downplay police violence.

Notably, 1%.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 11:10 AM) JR making money hand over fist and owns 0% of facility. Awful. Cities almost always end up negative on these stadium deals.

Iraq produces ~ 33% more oil than Libya, not 100%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count..._oil_production As an isolated move, Iraq stopping oil production could be compensated for, since oil production was depressed for years after the invasion. http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?coun...raph=production

By the accounts I've seen, they were occupying, albeit illegally. No violence or destruction. For the second point, the problem is that police seem to have become overly reliant on "non-lethal" options, which means harsh physical force is the go-to option for many situations where it shouldn't be.

QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 26, 2011 -> 02:09 PM) Dramatically improves their creative process But they produced crappy albums when they were just trying to cash in. So it's not even correlation, let alone causation.

What is that in response to?

I don't like Obama. http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/10/ove...ill-gambit.html

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Oct 26, 2011 -> 02:58 PM) Wow, advocating for sweatshops. Shouldn't say i'm suprised. What's next slave labor? "Well alot of these people are better off as slaves, as least they get a free bowl of rice". no, child labor! (see the comments or vonmises.org) If someone isn't literally holding a gun to your head, it's not coercion or "aggression." It's two parties entering a voluntary contract!

well I don't think it's particularly clear if he's talking only about Metallica in that paragraph or the larger music industry in general and is using Metallica is an example. It also ignores that Metallica produced garbage albums pre-industry collapse.

It's not too often you see an out-and-out defense of sweatshops: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/.../#disqus_thread

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 25, 2011 -> 04:45 PM) Chuck Klosterman on the travesty that is the Lou Reed / Metallica album. You cut short a pretty important line that sinks his whole argument, imo: Monetary success and high-quality are not linked in any way, shape or form in the music industry. To paraphrase the article: "But we don't live in a vacuum. We live on Earth. And that means we have to accept the real-life consequences of a culture in which recorded music is primarily about profits for record companies, and one of those consequences is [Hanson/Britney Spears/Beiber etc.].