StrangeSox

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 05:19 PM) I really think the Bears handled this poorly. Had they just said during the game "we believe he's torn a ligament based on our evaluations and he can't come back in the game" everybody would've known what was going on. But they told the commentators that his return was "questionable" which sounds like he could've come back in if he wanted to. In reality he tried and could barely move. Or as Lawrence Holmes just suggested, if you want to play the stupid mind games, leak the info to the sideline reporters so that the network can report on it but the Packers are kept in the dark.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 04:16 PM) Yeah, probably the case. But still not right. I don't like the fact that the thread was closed. I have nothing against you SS, and I thought we were debating the issue without calling one another names. It was a spirited argument. I thought that is why I came here. No hard feelings.

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:58 PM) Nobody knows the answer to this, and I hate to break this to you but that includes you. People are stating their opinions, which they have every right to. But some opinions are supported by evidence and others aren't. What reasoning, what evidence are you using to continue questioning why Cutler was pulled?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:57 PM) Oh, you totally just won the debate! He is injured! No one has ever played injured before! This post: Made it seem like you were questioning if he was really injured or if his sprain was more than a little stretch or discomfort. It was.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:55 PM) Your outrage here is just ridiculous. Give me a damned break. There are people that have played with this exact same injury. Enough with the "wow...Just wow." nonsense. Defend the guy if you like all you want, it doesn't bother me. But to claim that this guy has some infallible history of being the extreme competitor is just so overblown. He is a mope, a dope, he has a reputation as such, and that's why everyone is questioning him. There is a reason this is happening, and it's not because everyone just wants to pick on Jay Cutler. I said it earlier and I'll say it again. The chickens came home to roost, and whether he could go or couldn't go, it's about time the guy changes his attitude and matures. The guy is, by all accounts, a Grade A tool. That's what's driving the hate. He has no reputation as a quitter or of being soft.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:51 PM) All I have to say about this is, with how many precautions the league seems to take regarding injuries, especially to a prized quarterback, you think they would have had the knee immobilized or something while he was on the sidelines. Not walking around with no crutches, no ice, not sitting on the bench, but actually standing up and walking around. But he's actually injured! We have a confirmed MRI showing partial tearing. Do you think they're running a whole smoke screen now, going so far as to fake medical reports?

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:45 PM) Youre better off ignoring him. He seems like basically the only one on either side here not willing to discuss this reasonably. All I'm doing is asking for a reason to believe Cutler took himself out or caused himself to be taken out because of mental or physical weakness. All we've seen is that some other people played through a similar injury while some others didn't. We've got every reason to believe he was actually injured (because he was) and that the medical and coaching staff made the call.

QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:49 PM) This guy has waited for this moment his entire life. He has lived and dreamed for this moment. He has had 5 pro seasons of bone crushing hits. He has had I think, 5 concussions, the last of which he continued to play anyway. He has never quit or taken himself out of any game in his life that we know of. But now in a game that can change his life. A game that every football player wants to be in. A historical game that is so big it will erase all his previous games..he decides to quit?? It isn't fathomable. This is what every player strives for and now that he's here you think he just decided to say aw f*** it...having a bad day, I'll sit. He didn't say aw f*** it in any meaningless game in the last 5 years, but now he decides to?? The arrogant QB who thinks he can come back from anything. The one who says...I'll show you I can fit that ball there. The one that doesn't need to worry about mechanics. He quit?? It's just ludicrous. It's not that I'm just disagreeing with quitter/not tough crowd, I just can't make any sense of it whatsoever. Apparently that makes you unreasonable

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) Yes, which is the entire point. Notice how they use the word with the stronger connotation. Honestly, we covered this about 3 hours ago, and you are again doing this "sprain is a tear" nonsense, and yet you are the one pointing to this new diagnosis as if anything has changed. It's pretty damn clear that they used the stronger term this time for a reason. Sure, they're using the stronger word now, as they should. It's to counter the meatheads who are still insisting Cutler took himself out of the game and to better-inform the many fans who don't know that a Grade II Sprain is a tear. I don't think it's common knowledge for anyone who didn't play sports or take some sort of athletic training or medical classes, so they need to reinforce the severity of the injury before their franchise QB has his reputation in Chicago irreparably damaged. I was pointing to the confirmed diagnosis to reinforce the speculated diagnosis ptatc gave that he had a grade II sprain.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:40 PM) Sometimes it's just a stretch without tearing, but that's why there are different grades. Good catch. Lovie didn't do anything to help Jay by referring to it as a sprain instead of a tear. Most people don't associate significant injuries with sprains or strains, even though a Grade II can be bad and a Grade III sprain can be devastating.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:37 PM) Seriously, can we just let this go? There is evidence of players playing through it and evidence of players not playing through it. I can clearly recall LT moping on the sideline of the AFC Championship game against the Cotls while Phillip Rivers was running around with a brace on his knee trash talking to the Indy fans. Some guys just seem to want to win more than others. Not saying either is right or wrong for them personally, but as a fan, of course I want someone like Rivers. Ok, nothing will ever convince you that this was actually a medical decision and not because Jay was a p****, physically or mentally.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:34 PM) Note the use of the word tear, rather than sprain. This is a reaction to the earlier diagnosis of a sprain. Secondly, I'm not sure I've seen anyone argue that Jay was not injured. The fact that it takes 3-4 weeks to heal says nothing about whether he could have played on the injury or not. A sprain is a tear.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:31 PM) Well, playing running back with that injury and playing quarterback with that injury are slightly different, don't you think? The point is it's a serious injury that can take weeks to heal, not something you can necessarily brush off and play through. Especially when you need stability in that knee to make good throws and scramble as much as Cutler has to.

Sean Jensen confirmed that Cutler has a Grade II MCL tear, which typically takes 3-4 weeks to heal. What a p****.

LT missed six weeks with a 2nd degree MCL sprain (which is what ptatc thinks it is from seeing the treatment and movement on TV). http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3222896 Oh, and Sanders criticized LT for being a p****, too.

Residency laws seem a little outdated since I can be halfway around the world in about half a day without much effort and communicate instantly with just about anyone, anywhere.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:20 PM) Somehow this has to be partially Ozzie's fault. He told Lovie to use the washed up, never-really-that-great veteran instead of the young prospect!

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) You are really going to use a what if scenario? ok, what if he played the 2nd half, led them to a win and then won the SB and was the MVP? What if then? You need to what-if the situation to determine risk probabilities. That's the coaches' and medical staff's job. You have to assess the probability that he really is injured (since there's no locker room MRI) and the probability of worsening the injury.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:03 PM) No. But what was the risk of further injury? I would need to know that first. It's been a while since my one-semester AT class, I'll hope ptact can chime in here. But from an engineering standpoint, if you weaken one support, the others are going to have to take up the load. And it may be loading they're not exactly designed to support all that well, especially in combination with their normal loading. The knee's no different, and asking a damaged ligament to keep supporting his knee is just asking for trouble imo. BTW, B&B are reading a list of well-known players who left the game this year with MCL sprains and their multiple-week injuries they sat out with. Didn't go into sprain degrees, but still, it's an injury that can take you out of the game and cause you to miss weeks of play.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 03:02 PM) Oh nevermind, you backtracked. For the love of God, they showed Jay with a headset like 10 times and sitting next to Hanie. Y2HH is self-admittedly trolling a topic with ridiculously high emotions (on both sides).

QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 02:56 PM) If Cutler didn't come out because he was really injured, why did he come out? Is it because you think he quit? He didn't feel like playing anymore? He's a pu$$y? What? If you're on the opposite side of the those saying "stop questioning his toughness", then explain why. He had a (likely second degree) MCL sprain, was ineffective to begin with and worse with the injury, and the coaching staff decided to pull him rather than risk further injury. Let's say they kept Cutler in. He manages to get a couple of TD's and they take the lead, but he blows out his knee the rest of the way and is done for the SB and requires surgery in the off season. What good does that do anyone? Is that better or worse for the long-term prospects of the franchise?

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 02:47 PM) My honest opinion is that Lovie threw Jay under the bus with his typical and always retarded vagueness when it comes to telling people nothing while speaking for 20 minutes at a time. Lovie should have properly reported Jay as OUT, not questionable, which is what he did. I believe Lovie in particular, who has a HISTORY of this sort of thing, reported he was questionable so the Packers would have to "think" that Cutler could come back into the game at any time...because in Lovies mind, this gives his team an edge. A guys arm can get ripped off, and Lovie will say in the press conference that as far as he knows, that guy will be playing this weekend, and their medical staff will have to evaluate reattaching the missing limb. That's my honest opinion of what happened. Lovie purposefully MISrepresented the injury yesterday during the game for some sort of psychological edge, and the report that came across as "questionable", which means 50% chance of returning, planted the seeds of doubt in the fans minds...and this is the backlash of him doing so. Agree 100%.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 02:45 PM) Mental toughness. The inability to deal with adversity in the correct manner. Moping. Sulking. I don't know how many times I have to say it. But he's never shown it like that before. He's never quit on the team even when he's been getting his head knocked off.

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 02:43 PM) See here is what youre doing wrong. You are arguing with me like I personally am one of the people who called in the score and said Jay had a sprained vagina. Youre trying to discredit anything I said because "Jays getting a hugely unreasonable amount of s***." Now, am I giving Jay a hugely unreasonable amount of s***? No, Im looking at it objectively and discussing opinions with other fans. You on the other hand are acting like the people giving Jay a hugely unreasonable amount of s***, youre just on the other side. I had a contention with your statement that there's nothing to back up the counter-reaction to the initial meatball sprained vagina reaction, that's all.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 24, 2011 -> 02:38 PM) Well do you agree that there had to be some communication going on between Jay and the training and coaching staffs for the decision to be made? Do you think they just determined by themselves that Jay must have been injured because his performance was so poor, and therefore, he had a sprained MCL? I'm pretty certain that they asked him. But he does have a sprained MCL. So if they made that conclusion, they were right. We've seen Jay struggle and play poorly when he's getting knocked around. He was having a bad game yesterday, no doubt. But we haven't seen him up and quit on a team. Maybe if he was still getting the job done with the injury they'd have kept him in. But he wasn't. He was only going to hurt himself and hurt the team. That still doesn't justify the reaction to this, imo. Calling him a p****, weak, questioning his toughness, etc. None of that fits with the situation--he was playing poorly, sprained his MCL, continued to play just as bad if not worse and was pulled in the 2nd half by the coaching/medical staff. What about that brings up questions about his toughness?