StrangeSox

The military is taking over, which probably isn't as bad as it sounds, at least for now. Great day for unarmed organized resistance. The Al Jazeera English coverage is giving me chills listening to the emotion in the voices of the Egyptians.

al Jazeera reporting the Mubarek has stepped down. Egypt goes crazy! http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

Wonder if this has anything to do with it... It's gotten worse since then, spiking up to about 50% in 2007. http://press.take88.com/wp-content/uploads...ncomes-2007.pdf

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 11, 2011 -> 08:50 AM) God I don't even know where to begin. I just find it astonishing that the lifestyle I lead is deemed by some as being hypocritical. Let me provide you a little more insight as to the way I view the world and the actions I take to minimize my negative impacts (and I’m not stating these to be some kind of show-off): I do not participate in the direct, intentional killing on any animal for the purposes of my diet or clothing. There are literally billions of animals intentionally killed for these purposes each year in the U.S. alone. By doing this I also am not contributing to the enormous amounts of food, water, and land used to maintain this system of billions of animals. My paycheck does not contribute to the enormous amounts of animal waste product and methane gasses that pollute our air and land. I make all attempts to walk, bike, or take public transportation whenever possible. My wife and I put less than 5K miles on our car each year. We purchase an CSA share from a local organic farm to provide us with fruits and vegetables. We also proactively purchase as many local, organic, and fair trade products that we can. We donate to multiple charities that range from wildlife preservation, animal rescue, and doctors without borders. For someone to insinuate that my views and actions are nothing but hypocritical because the very impactful decisions I make don’t go far enough because I don’t live in a clay house under an apple tree and only subside on apples that fall from the tree and consume nothing else...well that’s preposterous. These actions I take dramatically reduce my carbon footprint and minimize unnecessary suffering of animal life and shouldn’t be easily dismissed because an animal has been unintentionally run over by a tractor when my corn was picked. For someone to equate that run over animal with the factory farm system of intentional pain and suffering and ultimately death is absurd. These are not apples to apples and you're being disingenuous by stating that. This whole argument reminds me of the early debates in the filibuster about climate change. The climate change deniers completely dismissed everything because Al Gore has a large house. That’s it. He has a big house so that means climate change doesn’t exist, no one should take steps to reduce their footprint, and the theory is automatically false because he is a 100% hypocrite. So I might as well eat tons of meat, purchase fur coats, kick dogs in the head (because they might not really feel pain anyway), and drive an H1 everyday to the corner post office instead of walking because I am nothing but a hypocrite right now because I eat fruits and vegetables (they might feel pain!) and use the Internet. It’s an all or nothing proposition. Unless I live in that clay hut under the apple tree then everything I’m doing is meaningless. And I apologize if sharing my viewpoints come off as preachy to everyone. That is not my intention. I have not demanded that any one of you change anything in your lifestyle. I applaud your lifestyle choices, not criticize them. But I think you see why people took some offense at being equated with people who intentionally torture animals for pleasure now.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 05:07 PM) I can point you to sources (or you can look on your own) but that's just a whole other matter that would lead to other topics. The basic idea is that food + water = beef argument is based off common industrial practices (and often embellished to favor the vegans). You don't need to feed cattle grain. They're meant to eat various plants, bark, etc. as browsers. You don't need to raise cattle the way they are currently raised. You don't need to grow plants the way they are currently grown. You don't need to work with the amount of expensive machinery and fuels that make beef expensive - and actually - cattle can be part of a system where their own products and behavior are used to lower costs. This argument you rely on is itself reliant upon a system that is generally exploitative and wasteful. It's like conducting an experiment in improper conditions and then saying your results are truth. Converting plant matter to meat isn't some simple equation of grain + water = meat, much less grain + water + conventional practices = the only way of obtaining meat. And what waste materials? Everything a cow produces has a use, except that methane and CO2 would be hard to harvest. But every animal part along with it's excrement, the hide, meat, eyes, tongue, brain, everything has at least one very good use. The diets we put cattle on actually lead to a lot of problems, requiring us to pump them full of antibiotics. The marvels of modern technology!

You're forgetting the vital taste/input ratio. You always do.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:44 PM) Oh yeah? Which sources are you citing? All of the good ones. Yours suck and have been thoroughly discredited.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:35 PM) Oh man. This is going to get ugly.

Listen up brothers and sisters, come hear my desperate tale. I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail. Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night. This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight. Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime. Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream. Chorus: I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories) How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad) Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go) It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade) I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue. If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two. I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage. Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage I told the judge when he sentenced me, This is my finest hour, I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower Chorus How low as people do we dare to stoop, Making young broccolis bleed in the soup? Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato! I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stirfry are sealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gormet slob) How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field) Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves) It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame) Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....

El Baradei just tweeted: Egypt will explode. Army must save the country now

'grats!

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:26 PM) I'd say I hope you live in Canada so that you'd get great health insurance to cover the many hospital trips. You can still cook and sterilize it. But it's a trick question, I'll just have my pet tiger bring down the cows!

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:23 PM) Just look at all the record droughts we're seeing in the world and look at how much water and food is needed to produce 1 lb of beef. The population has been exploding exponentially the last 150 years and shows no signs of slow down. This paradigm is unsustainable. Yes, but beef is tasty. What don't you get about this?!?!?!?! Again, I agree with your general argument here, even if I'm a hypocrite and don't practice it. I just think eating meat=hunting for food=hunting for sport and not eating meat=intentionally torturing animals for pleasure is a pretty ridiculous claim. About as bad as claiming that harvesting wheat is just as bad because animals are inevitably killed.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:18 PM) Fine. A cow and a carrot are the same exact thing. You've convinced me. From now on I'll only eat sand and plastic. There's probably some bacteria on that sand and plastic, you jerk. Like I said, I think you can make good arguments in favor of your dietary choices. I just don't think you can make a good equivalence argument between eating meat which results in (hopefully quick) pain and/or suffering and intentionally torturing animals. I haven't seen one yet, anyway. What's your thoughts on scavengers? What if I only eat meat from already dead animals?

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:19 PM) The sad thing is that in many ways you are absolutely correct. Adopting a diet based on grain harvested commercially is adopting a diet based on the practice of destroying ecosystems and salting lands. The effects rain down everywhere, like fertilizers washing into rivers and f***ing up ocean habitants, etc. Animals in this case don't just move to better areas and live happy lives, they die off. Lots of farms are for sale pretty cheaply in this country. A big reason why? The land is absolutely useless without extensive rehabilitation. But, to be fair, we grow a lot more food than we need because we turn around and feed it to beef and pork. A lot less efficient than just eating the grains/vegetables/etc., but also a lot less tasty.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:13 PM) Excellent equivalency demonstration. I win. Bow before me. :notworthy :notworthy

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) Last I checked plants do not have a central nervous system. I don't recall ever hearing a tree cry out in pain when I picked an apple from it. Check out fruitarianism or jainism. Your wheat harvests kill millions of living things and inevitably result in the death of animals. You are no different than Michael Vick!

So, the US Chamber hired private security firms to damage anti-Chamber and progressive groups, basically by lying and spreading as much misinformation as possible. http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/10/lobbyists-chamberleaks/ I'm glad Obama was friendly with them and pointed out how they want America to succeed, too!

Don't worry, we've heard your concerns! We're changing government! Hush, hush, we know that we were your concerns, but we'll change it! You'll see! Now run along home, and don't watch those nasty liars on TV!

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 03:35 PM) Im at work right now so Ill get to a lot of this later, but who are you to say what other people can morally like or dislike? Some people think there is nothing wrong with killing any animal in any fashion. Some people think it is morally wrong to kill any animal in any fashion. Morals are nothing more than a human societal creation. Different societies have different morals. The morals of the 21st century are pretty different than the morals of the 1st century and id guess will be different than the morals of the 30th century. Just because the majority may feel morally one way, does not mean they are right. People have believed things were moral in the past only to think they are abhorrent today. If I was to do an absolute moral equivalency, I would say that torture is worse than plain murder. But I would say that murder is closer to torture, than not murder is. QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 03:38 PM) Sure. That doesn't mean one can make a sound argument in favor of every possible moral judgement, like equating a human choosing to eat meat with a human deliberately torturing an animal for the sake of torture. That applies to your post as well as BS's. I'm not saying you can't make a good argument that consumption of meat is wrong if we have the ability to live without it. I'm saying you can't make a good argument that eating meat is equivalent to intentional torture. BTW, when you say "murder," you're using loaded words and begging the question. FWIW, I probably agree with you and BS a lot on issues of animal treatment and the moral (as well as ecological) problems with the mass consumption of beef and pork.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) Morals are subjective. Sure. That doesn't mean one can make a sound argument in favor of every possible moral judgement, like equating a human choosing to eat meat with a human deliberately torturing an animal for the sake of torture.

You know, you can be against eating meat or using animals products, against hunting and against the deliberate torture of animals without trying to make a hilariously bad argument that all three are morally equivalent.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 9, 2011 -> 08:00 PM) Brilliant observation. Given that hunters only hunt because they're angry at the animals they're shooting at, I am also confused by this hypocritical stance of his. I'm picturing a fat, drunk hunter swearing under his breath at the deer while he's lining up the shot.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 9, 2011 -> 04:42 PM) Ignorance doesn't imply stupidity. I wanted to make sure you didn't think I was dismissing any personal responsibility of all people who end up in bankruptcy or foreclosure. I just don't like it when the responsibilities of all of those who profit are dismissed.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 9, 2011 -> 04:30 PM) I'm not denying there aren't outliers and that there are some people who did everything right and still got screwed. But I also don't buy that the cause of the foreclosures was Bush closing a credit card debt loophole and insurance companies screwing people over. There's no single cause of the massive amount of foreclosures over the past several years, but this certainly didn't help. Mounting medical bills didn't help. Confusing, complex lending practices and banks lacking any financial or ethical lending guidelines in pursuit of more profit didn't help. Complex but ultimately garbage financial instruments that caused trillions of dollars to evaporate and the economy to crash didn't help. And, yes, people borrowing more money than they could ever reasonably expect to repay certainly didn't help. However, laying the blame on stupid, dumb people who can't manage money ignores the root causes of the problem. Like ever-rising medical bills, stagnant or shrinking real wages, job off-shoring, unethical lending, heavily marketed credit and loans and a real lack of any decent financial education for most people.