iamshack

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:16 PM) Fangraphs puts AJ squarely in the center of the pack for catchers this year. I have a hard time believing Pierre/Beckham/AJ belong in this group...Morel is a rookie...rookie's traditionally are at the bottom of the pack statistically...which leaves Dunn and Rios...what more is there to say about those two...although I still have faith in both of them.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:10 PM) another factor you may be missing is the press. Fans aren't the only ones telling them how bad they are. It's in every paper, it's on the news, it's on the colbert report. Do you think that magically the player forgets everything when they are on the road. Geography makes them forget how they were treated yesterday. This is only about home and road. Human behaviour is not tied to timeframes either. I never said that is was only home or only away just that players talk about it and are effected by it. I know you don't agree but people are influenced by the reaction of others around them. I do agree. I'm just saying you're trying to extend this to a place that just isn't backed up by the statistics. And you may not want to believe the statistics, but the statistics are the record of what actually took place in the games...

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:03 PM) I'm not quite sure how you did either, because I never said that. So we have established that players' performance may be impacted by negative treatment from fans. The statistical evidence in our sample size (this season) doesn't show much of a correlation. Statistical evidence is much more representative of what actually occurs during baseball games than Ptatc's anecdotal evidence. All we need now is Robert Stack and we can have our own episode of "Unsolved Mysteries."

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:52 PM) That's what you got out of those two posts? Seriously, you need to work on the reading comp. What the hell else could one get out of them? In one post, Sqwert asserts that it is your premise that the disparity in records is due to the booing from the fans. In the next post, your own, you then say the following: Hmm, that sure seems like someone who is defending their own premise to me... You then go on to debate this with Sqwert over the course of the next several posts... Now tell me, if this was not your premise, why the hell did you make such an effort to defend it?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:45 PM) And most are wrong. Working at a university I find that to be the case most often. Most people take a little bit of information and perceive it to mean whatever they want. Instead of getting all of the information and allowing everything to form a a more inclusive picture. I would have sworn we've covered this already in today's class. There is little to no statistical evidence to prove what you're arguing, which isn't surprising, because as someone else has pointed out, it is most likely only noise statistically. In fact, the players who show the largest disparity between home and road are those who don't get negative treatment at home at all. Finally, the player you swear revels in negative treatment, because "he talks about it alot," AJ, is by far a better player at home this season than on the road.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:46 PM) I guess reading really is fundamental. See posts 12 and 13, where you admitted that was your premise.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:37 PM) AA has done some amazing things, many of his moves are more for the longer term (I know, you're an all in guy). That said, if after another 3 years and he hasn't progressed in the standings then of course he didn't keep up his track record. He's shown the ability to clean up someone else's mess, and he's done it from a position where he had nothing to lose. Let's see him build up something himself now.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) Fact of the matter is that we have 6 (yes, 6!) of the worst players in baseball at their respective positions getting significant playing time. I can't think of off the top of my head a team being so prohibitively handicapped by that many guys ever winning a division title. Save the sample size. Baseball tells you the truth 9.5 times out of 10. Jeesh, I can think of 4 (Morel/Pierre/Rios/Dunn)....who are the other 2?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:37 PM) By repeating it as many times as he felt necesary, I think that is exactly Ptatc's point. Dude, I have tried to be polite with you here, but you are just being incredibly f***ing obtuse. MANY people in this thread have conceded that some players may be affected by the increased pressure to perform at home and the obvious human preference to not receive negative treatment. NOT ONE other than yourself has made the argument that this is a material or significant cause for the large disparity in record between home and road games. Your premise is f***ing stupid. Get over it already.

QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:35 PM) Am I seriously the only person who thinks this means nothing and is just randomization? No, I think the majority of the people posting in this thread agree with that. I think the statistical evidence for it lies with Quentin. Why he hits so poorly at home this year, probably just random.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:20 PM) You've said that, and then ignored it. No, I explained the distinction I was making later on in the thread...you and he apparently aren't understanding that distinction, even though it is spelled-out very simply. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:16 PM) I'm fairly confident I remember Konerko calling out the Big Hurt in 2003 or 2004 for some reason. I doubt it was in 2003.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:03 PM) It is kind of important. He actually knows how players feel, versus the rest of us who are just guessing. Just read the f***ing post already... I said the same exact thing as he did hours ago.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:49 PM) when dealing with people there is rarely conclusive evidence to say anything in terms of causal relationships unless you run a true double blind, random sample study. In MLB clubhouses the players will talk about how they are treated by fans. It effects players in different ways. It can effect their play if they take it personally. I've seen it happen to many players in slumps. Players do react to fans. Remember when a white sox player went into the stand in Milwaukee because of what a fan said? It does effect them and can effect their play. I really don't know why you keep repeating this to me. See post #29 of this thread.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:49 PM) I'm game. me too

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:42 PM) There you go. He gets a good middle of the rotation starter, relief help, and clears $10 million out of Jackson when he has 2 months left on his contract? That's a great move if Stewart can pull that off. Hell, it's a good move even if Stewart does very little. Well that's fine. A GM should be judged by his entire body of work (barring some clear pattern from very good decisions to very poor decisions) and not one trade.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:40 PM) I completely disagree that I would have been wrong just because we won a bad division in 2008 and couldn't hang with the serious AL contenders. If Dunn were himself, we'd probably be at the top of this division, but we'd still be a weak playoff contender in comparison to the rest of the AL. I have wanted us to rebuild in order to attempt to make ourselves a powerhouse playoff team. Well, I guess it's just a difference of opinion then. I think this team has been built to succeed in the postseason; the problem has been they haven't been consistent enough within the division to get there. I would rather have kept this current core and had chances at postseason play and then rebuild when the core has passed their prime than rebuild back in 2008. But I guess it's a point reasonable men can disagree on.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:34 PM) If you had ever met him, you would know he does. He talks about it alot. First of all, that really says nothing about what is really going on in his mind when he is playing... And secondly, that is exactly my point. There is really no causal link anyone can establish between the fans' behavior and the player's performance. I would guess there is a larger incidence of referees/umpires falling victim to the influence of the fans and having an impact than the players...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:34 PM) Because his numbers are dominated by the last 2 games? Those two games both happened on the road. His overall numbers suggest he plays better at home.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:30 PM) because he is a@# who enjoys that kind of thing. Most people in life aren't happy to make others miserable, he seems to enjoy it. But does he really? He has a .604 OPS on the road and an .817 OPS at home....

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:28 PM) No, man, no. I've been calling for a rebuild since 2007. Go back and read my posts if you care to. I don't like being characterized as being a Monday morning quarterback just because most others weren't saying it. Yes, and you were clearly wrong about that, since they won the division in 2008. Who knows what happens if Quentin doesn't f*** up his hand with a month remaining. Let me ask you this. If Adam Dunn had performed at his career averages to this point in the season, where do you think we would be in the standings right now?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:26 PM) i read the post. And while I agree it isn't the only determining factor, your implying it doesn't effect their play, which is wrong. Oh nevermind. You don't want to even bother to read the thread clearly. You just want to make it clear that you spend time in the clubhouse from time to time.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:14 PM) Which is exactly how it should be. You and I both know it would have been mentioned by someone by now. Not a single player has ever said this to the media, not Hawk, nor Ozzie. I have an incredibly difficult time believing this has been the case all-along without anyone insomuch as mentioning it.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:20 PM) It's not a fallacy. I also don't think it is the only factor. Maybe they see the HR stats and swing for the fences all the time, you knows. However, as the season has gone on, I have no doubt that it is a contributing factor. Again, not that they don't deserve it. Re-read the post. It absolutely is a fallacy.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:14 PM) I don't have all of the answers, but it didn't take a genius to see that this team has been steadily going down the wrong path basically since 2007. Changes have been becoming more and more necessary, but the franchise has been in absolute denial about it. But this is entirely 20/20 hindsight monday morning quarterbacking. The team was a disaster in 07. The team won the division in 08. The team's biggest weakness last season was having no effective DH. Adam Dunn was signed this past offseason, and most of the remainder of the team was kept intact. The team has been worse this season, despite that signing. It's really easy to say that things have been terrible and going downhill for years, but they really have not. They've been hovering around a position where it is unclear whether the whole thing needs to be torn down or whether the existing core needs to be dismantled and a new core needs to be built. I respect anyone's opinion on which path we should have taken. But where I get frustrated is when fans think there is some easy path to success or that this year's team was determined to fail from the outset. A lot smarter men than most of us have tried to answer these questions and been wrong. So it's just not as clear-cut as many would like for it to be.