iamshack

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 12:46 PM) Managers have been traded in the past. Lou Pinella comes to mind immediately. And the Devil Rays traded Wynn for him because they could not afford Wynn and they were trying to gain some legitimacy in any way possible. What we are discussing is the complete opposite scenario.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 12:32 PM) Every one of those teams would give up their manager for Stanton. Managers are fired for non-baseball things such as disagreeing with the GM's style or, arguing with a player. Stanton under team control for 4 or 5 years is easily worth a manager. Well, I suppose I should just come right out and admit that we really have no precedent for this and so neither of us really knows for sure. But I disagree. I cannot imagine what would happen if one of those teams was to trade the contract of their manager for a prospect and then that prospect didn't pan out. Or if that prospect broke his leg and was never the same player again. I think these organizations are far too greatful for what their managers have done for them, even so much as they will allow that manager to handle a prospect as they see fit, or trade away a prospect that was seen as the organization's best prospect, because of a clash with said manager, in order to keep the manager in place.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 07:54 AM) I'm happy to see numbers 10 through 6. I've had them all, and in copious amounts. I'm a fan of most Sam Adams beers, and the Octoberfest and Winter Lager are two of my favorites of theirs. I've always thought that fall and winter are the best seasons for beer because you get the Octoberfests, Dunkels, Schwarzbiers, and darker beers with spices. Sam Adams' winter mix pack has a nice selection, including the Winter Lager, Old Fezziwig, and Holiday Porter. The addition of the White Ale this year confused me, since it used to be a spring beer. It may have confused me, but that didn't keep me from drinking them. To anyone out there who has never had Hoegaarden, find it and try it. If you like wheat beers or white ales, this is one of the better ones. I'm a big Blue Moon fan (more on that later), but I think Hoegaarden is a better beer. If you can find it on draft, it's devastatingly good. It's often served in the glass shown in the picture Jeremy uploaded. That glass is like a small trash can...lots of beer. Now let's talk about Blue Moon. I've been a fan for many years. I can remember taking it to a party nearly 15 years ago, and most people there had never heard of it. I think I turned some folks into Blue Moon fans that night. Looking at the Rate Beer and Beer Advocate ratings you wouldn't think it's a great beer. And maybe it's not as good as I think (or many others think for that matter), but I think it's that odd very well known and easily accessible beers that has a cult following. There aren't many bars or restaurants that don't have it on draft, and you can find it in any grocery store or mini mart. Coors Molson actually brews this beer, but they don't put that on the bottle. And that's done on purpose. There might be quite a few people who would be less inclined to purchase a beer called Coors Belgian White. About two years ago I was at a Buffalo Wild Wings, and they were advertising a Black and Blue (Guinness and Blue Moon). I shrugged my shoulders and said why not. Now that's pretty much the only beer I order there. Give it a try if you haven't yet. You might be surprised. This is what I order almost exclusively myself. I used to be a half and half guy, but have been a black and blue guy for the past few years.

QUOTE (mr_genius @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 12:58 PM) This job market is very tough for entry level workers and the long term unemployed. A degree is still very important, but I can see how someone who graduated in this downturn would feel like their investment isn't paying off. There's a lot of very capable new grads that just had the bad luck of graduating in a extremely competitive job market. Agreed, but as someone who graduated from undergrad in 03' and then from law school in 07', this has been the mantra of the newly graduated well before this recession hit. It's really been brutal out there for recent college grads for the better part of this decade.

It seems as though the phenomenon of college-educated people taking jobs traditionally categorized as "noncollege level jobs" has been happening gradually over the last twenty years. I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against going to college, however. Chronicle of Higher Education

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 11:10 AM) This one is easy...which industry has suffered by far the biggest hit because of the nature of this recession? Construction. Residential, commercial, etc., construction has been hammered by the bursting of the housing bubble. Construction employment is generally semi-skilled, pays pretty well, but doesn't require a college education. Oh I don't know if it is as easy as you think....this recession has spread far beyond just the construction industry. I think it's definitely a big factor, as you point out, but with the layoffs and voluntary severances across all industries, I'm not sure that construction is necessarily the hardest-hit industry. Edit: Ok, hah, Balta, I should never doubt you or your googling skills. I googled this and the first link of course was "Construction industry hardest hit by recession."

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 10:40 AM) Well to me, the most obvious thing it says is, any person's career road will be much, much harder without a college degree. Not that this is news, I think we all knew that. But the difference is stark. It also tells me that, even in a deep recession, if you have a college degree, your job prospects are still pretty damn good. But I really can't make any sort of qualitative supposition of the sort you did, about WHAT jobs they have, without seeing salary or other job detail data to go with this. Fair enough. But if you're saying that even in a recession your job prospects are best if you have a college degree, and one can assume that in a recession there are fewer jobs than under better economic conditions, wouldn't it stand to reason that this is because those with college degrees are taking the jobs that do become available at a higher rate than those without college degrees? I guess this also depends on which jobs are being eliminated due to the recession, jobs that typically require college degrees versus those that do not.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 10:30 AM) Well no, that's your supposition of the details based on higher level data. Ok...I suppose I should have typed "this is what I would infer from the data." Would you infer something different?

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 01:13 AM) The value of education has never been clearer. The unemployment rate for people who never graduated high school is 15 percent--depression-level joblessness. For high-school grads with no college, unemployment is 10.4 percent, and for college grads it's just 4.9 percent. So basically what this is saying is that the college graduates are unable to find enough employment in the jobs they are typically qualified for, and so they have resorted to taking the jobs they are typically over-qualified for, and this has put more non-college grads out of work...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 10:34 AM) I really do see your guys side on Oney. You're right, he's out of line for the public face of any organization. But I will still say that if I were in that locker room, or in that front office, I would be somewhere between less than really outraged and quietly content about this turn of events, based in no small part on the fact that Bobby's off the field issues affected his performance last year. Call it the "Scooter Libby" premise. Yeah, the guy may have broken the law, but he did so while smearing a guy going after his bosses. I really don't think that these players are upset with Bobby for the way he performed last year. He wasn't so horribly bad that it was clear he simply couldn't pitch because of whatever these personal problems were. I think it's assuming a lot to think they would be angry at him in any way. It's not like he had a complete meltdown or went after some of his teammates or anything. I think these guys are human beings that are not immune to personal issues just like any of us aren't, and that his teammates understand that. If anyone was really hurt by the comments Bobby made, my guess is it was Ozzie, because I think they really did have a quasi father-son type relationship, and I am sure that is why Oney spazzed out as much as he did. The Guillen's sort of welcomed Bobby into their family, and when Bobby slipped-up a bit personally and struggled on the field, he couldn't understand why Ozzie wasn't unconditionally supportive of him, which then led to the rift that's been going on. It's a situation that unfortunately has not had a happy ending, but I doubt that anyone is happy about what Oney did now that the dust has settled a bit.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 09:26 AM) They were going to trade him for Mike Stanton. I don't care if he was angelic, you trade your manager for Mike Stanton. Its not like we were talking about trading him for a Sun Times columnist to be named later. The rest of it has all been repeated ad nasuem. I hear the end of the world stuff with Ozzie, I just don't buy it. I'm just saying this has been going on for the better part of a decade now. Hell what happened with Magglio was WAY worse than this and Ozzie kept his job. He pretty much spilled that Maggs was a juicer, and nothing happen. Plus, that was before he got a team into the playoffs, let alone with a world series title. Ozzie gets fired when the team sucks, and not before. Speaking of Angelic, I don't think the Angels would trade Mike Scoscia for Mike Stanton, I don't think the Yankees would trade Joe Girardi for Mike Stanton, I don't think the Rays would trade Joe Maddon for Mike Stanton. Trading a manager who has been with your club for a number of years shows a major change in direction and philosophy. You don't do that for some prospect, I don't care how promising he looks. There is no recent examples or history of this occuring and there is a reason for it. As for the other points, yeah, we're just butting heads at this point. Agree to disagree.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2010 -> 09:45 AM) The problem is the dads bosses hired the kid. Whether the kid is told to be quiet or not, the company assumes responsibility for the guys they hire. They hired him to work in the video-editing room or something. It's not like he was hired to be an Assistant GM or Director of Player Development or something. They did not hire Oney because he is some rising star in the baseball industry. This was clearly a favor done for Ozzie and Oney, and the kid has done nothing but make them pay for it, both while he was an employee, and after they fired him. The fact that they actually had to fire Ozzie's son - think about that - they actually had to fire the manager's kid, shows just how bad the situation had become. Whether you want to argue that they share some blame for the kid being a complete asshat or not, it's pretty clear that he has become such a distraction and such a negative influence, that the White Sox were willing to take a pretty extraordinary step in getting rid of him. If he keeps this up, would it not follow that they would have to take an even more extraordinary step and fire Ozzie? The fact that Kenny and Jerry were actually considering trading Ozzie, and then admitted it publicly, makes it pretty clear that Ozzie is on thin ice. JR is probably one of the most loyal owners in all of sports, and it's pretty clear that Ozzie and the Guillen family has tested his patience to the point of him considering Ozzie's dismissal. Parse out blame however you want, and say that Ozzie is not technically responsible for this because the White Sox employed his son, but one would have to think that this is just one more notch against the Guillen family, and at some point it's going to be one notch too many.

Balta, do you really think that the very ordinary and commonplace criticisms Bobby made really upset the White Sox organization enough that they would secretly be applauding this attack on Bobby's personal life? I know Kenny has gone after players publicly in the past before, but I sincerely hope that the Organization has more class than to be pleased with this outcome.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 10:24 PM) It has nothing to do with justifying it, or not. There seems to be this feeling that this is some massive event, yet it is pretty easy to argue this isn't close to the worst that has happened around Ozzie. There is also the thought that Ozzie has to fix this. My point is very simple... it goes back to the old adage about giving a monkey a gun. The simple point of view is to blame Ozzie. Third paragraph, first line of the post you are responding to. I'm saying it's a repetitive pattern.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 09:20 PM) Check out Decoded. I don't like it...it reminds me of UFO Hunters or UFO Files or whatever...they go on this wild goose chase and never really find anything in the end...although the thing about JWB was pretty interesting...I had never heard that theory previously.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 09:18 PM) If the Sox really cared that much about the off of the field stuff, Ozzie would have been fired along time ago. This isn't the first time, nor the biggest time. They also would have fired Kenny Williams a long time ago, if the off of the field drama bothered them that much.. The Sox will wash their hands of Guillen (and Williams for that matter) when he doesn't win games, unless some really crazy happens. No italics needed. No, the italics were needed, because you weren't understanding the point. First you accused me of ignoring something, then you ignored a point addressing the very point you made again in your post responding to me. With Ozzie, it's a repetitive pattern, and eventually enough will be enough. You want to justify in your mind his family making the private issues of a player public, you go ahead and do so. This doesn't happen elsewhere around the league. Only here. I'm one of Ozzie's biggest supporters, and I often get called a homer, and if this offends me this much, well, that will probably tell you what the average fan thinks of it.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 07:52 PM) Yeah I like it. I am waiting for the day that the Pickers bring something to the Pawn Shop that needs to be taken to the Restoration place. And then ship it out to Alaska via the Ice Road Truckers, who bump into a crew from Ax Men. Honestly, my favorite show on History, other than Ancient Aliens, is probably Swamp People.

QUOTE (MurcieOne @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 07:33 PM) NEW Michelle Ryan photos (Kinda NSFW). Uh-oh. . . That guy sure doesn't look like Rex Ryan. He actually looks a little like Revis Island. Haha...I love how he just rolled with it though and didn't try to deny it. Now everyone is just thinking "well, whatever floats your boat." What the guy wants to do in his personal life is fine by me, as long as he isn't hurting anyone. And props to him for owning up to it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 08:46 PM) There is a major difference there. If it came about because of his being employed here, that is the White Sox fault. Even if Ozzie asked for Oney to get a job, the team agreed to it. It is the same idea as Ozzie not wanting Thome around after last year. Kenny is the ultimate authority on the roster, just like someone further up the chain is responsible for having Oney hired and fired. It doesn't matter who his father is, or isn't, in that situation. If this came out of Ozzie talking to Oney, then it is Ozzie's fault, and Ozzie deserves to be held accountable for that, just like anyone else in the real world. If the organization feels this is big enough to fire Ozzie for, and this came about because Ozzie fed Oney the information, I have no problem with Ozzie getting fired for it. I'm just not willing to excuse people for their share of responsibility, if it is there. I understand if you want to say technically the White Sox bear some of the blame for employing the idiot at all. Thus my second paragraph in my last post. But in the grand scheme of things, do you really think they care? After everything Ozzie has put them through, eventually, they are going to decide to just wash their hands of him. And this will be another one of the strikes against him, whether you want to say technically or philosophically or morally or whatever, it is partially they're own fault. But for the White Sox continuing to employ Ozzie Guillen as their manager, all this soap opera nonsense would not be happening. But for the White Sox continuing to employ Ozzie Guillen as their manager, Oney Guillen would not be out spouting off about the private matters of their players. Eventually Jerry and the rest of the decision makers, will say "But for Ozzie Guillen being the manager of the White Sox...."and then he'll be gone.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 07:54 PM) My ultimate point is that any team could have taken Beckham and Sale and got the exact same result. Seriously, these were not shockers as to how well these guys performed when the got to the bigs. So to say "Yeah well the system might suck but you have to give them credit for Beckham and Sale" is an awful argument because even the worst teams at developing players could have gotten the exact same results. In my opinion, said argument is pretty much butthurt White Sox fan mad that a prospect writer said the truth. The "Beckham and Sale" argument could be made for every team. Seriously, who is the worst team in baseball right now? The Royals? Well yeah but Billy Butler made the big leagues and is a doubles machine and Zach Greinke got them a slew of talent. See how easy it is to name two players an organization drafted and developed and then rank how "good" they are at developing and drafting. Oh and a few scouts I have spoken to or read don't believe Sale will ever start, or at least don't think he ever will be one. I tend to agree. So doesn't taking a college pitcher with your first round pick for him to just be a pen arm kind of shoot any "b...b...but Sale" argument to pieces? (For the record I do like Sale and the pick, just as a really, really, good 8th inning guy for a team that is trying to win now.) The why wasn't Beckham picked earlier? Why wasn't Sale? And in re: your argument about Sale not being a starter, you're claiming to have won the point because a scout said Sale won't start or because you agree with him? Don't you think maybe you should wait and see what actually occurs first? This is ridiculous and I am finished with it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 08:13 PM) There are some mighty big assumptions being made here. The assumption seems to be that Ozzie is telling Oney this stuff outside of the realm of the Sox clubhouse. If Oney's information came from either his work, or his social relationships with Jenks or even other players, then no Ozzie isn't responsible for Oney. If Ozzie is feeding this information to Oney, then yes Ozzie is responsible for Oney. I'm not ignoring this at all. I'm saying that any relationships or information or employment with the White Sox or White Sox players comes completely as a result of his father's position with the White Sox. Oney would never be hanging out with White Sox players if his father was not their manager. Oney would never know any private information about White Sox players or otherwise if his father was not the manager of the White Sox. Oney would never have been given a position with the White Sox unless his father was the manager of the Chicago White Sox. To pretend otherwise is just being stubborn. At the end of the day, you want to talk about technicalities or legalities or whether he was employed by the team or knows this or that because of his friendships with the players, that doesn't matter. What does matter is Ozzie's kid is out spouting his mouth off like a fire hose out of control and the Organization is going to get sick and tired of it. And then Ozzie will be fired.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 06:59 PM) The same reason that people listen to Joe Cowley. They are really good at stirring it up with not a whole lot of substance. They are essentially tabloids onto themselves. People eat that up. No. Joe Cowley is the White Sox beat writer. Who the f*** is Oney Guillen? Oh yeah, he's Ozzie Guillen's son. Oh, and Ozzie's not responsible for him either.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 07:52 PM) Two things change that situation. Number one he spent time as a member of the White Sox organization as an employee, and he had access to the team that way. He also apparently had a social relationship with Jenks outside of the clubhouse. If his information comes from one of those two sources, Ozzie isn't responsible for it at all. So why is it that people listen to Oney Guillen? How is it that he has any audience at all? Why does Jow Cowley use him as a source?

Have any of you guys seen the spinoff from Pawn Stars with Rick the restoration guy? I believe it is called American Restoration?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2010 -> 06:17 PM) This a great point. If Ozzie is responsible for Oney, many of the people in this thread need to be putting their mommy's and daddy's in this thread so we can talk to your responsible party's. That is not even close to a reasonable analogy.