iamshack

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:49 PM) St. Louis has been on top for a decade because they had perhaps the greatest 15th round draft selection in the history of MLB. Take away that one single pick, and St. Louis could well have been a moribund franchise. Their system is regularly talked about as near the bottom of the league, but they occasionally pull a good player out of it, just like the Royals. You're going to argue that the Cardinals are the Royals had they not drafted Albert Pujols?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:46 PM) I still disagree on this one. Plenty of other teams do exactly the same sort of overslot game, and then they wind up with a series of busts. The Red Sox just got a couple of lucky hits while doing so. And if we come back in 5 years, it's entirely plausible that the Red Sox's system will be down, just like the Yankees was a few years ago, just like the Sox's is now, etc. Well, to illustrate your point, just look at Detroit. They pay over-slot and have struggled to build a consistently strong system. But my point is that it gives you the best chance for success.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:40 PM) If I compare KC to others, KC I can't put into the boat with Boston, because even if everything was done right, they'd never be a regular competitor; they need to do like the Rays. Have a bunch of guys who all come up and hit at the same time, along with a veteran or two who is still under their control, and maybe a successful reclamation project or two, then try to make a serious 1-2 year run, then be ready to dismantle before guys hit FA. The fact that Kansas City cannot compare to Boston does not mean they must take up residence in the bottom 5 organizations in the league every year. All they need look to is down the road to St Louis for inspiration. Or to fellow division opponent Minnesota.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:35 PM) I'd say..."luck". There might be a big of weighting done by having more picks or something like that, or having the GM in San Diego bail you out, but 10 years ago...the Red Sox weren't exactly a team playing with prospects, while the White Sox had the #1 rated system in baseball while being a winning team. It flips back and forth. The Red Sox have been willing to take advantage of the inefficiencies of the drafting system, namely, paying over slot money to reduce their disadvantage in drafting order. The White Sox, because of JR's relationship to Bud Selig, have really not. What this has resulted in is the Red Sox' ability to build strong farm systems while producing massive amounts of revenue via their MLB success. It's a brilliant process which continues to make them one of the best-run organizations in baseball, while we have to try and maintain an edge through payroll and good decision-making. It's pretty obvious which method produces the more consistent results.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:30 PM) I actually think it's somewhat different. I think it's like BABIP. When you draft, even if you do all the scouting in the world correctly, you've still got a 15% chance of hitting, or something like that. If you hold onto enough guys and stockpile enough picks, then eventually you're going to hit a hot streak, while another team could do just as well with everything and hit a cold streak, yet the management of the team on the hot streak would be idolized, while people get fired and ridiculed from the unlucky team. But ultimately the moment of truth with many of these picks is how they translate minor league success, namely double-a success, to the major leagues. Until then, unless you're trading these prospects for proven MLB talent, they get you nothing other than a high rating in some baseball publication. As of today, that's all this Kansas City system has netted them, other than some hope with the fan base.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:23 PM) Looking at your list of teams, one thing struck me...how many ridiculous disappointments have those teams seen? The Dodgers, to start. Billingsly seemingly has imploded. Broxton, perhaps ditto. Loney never developed. Hu is long gone. Matt Kemp had one great year and fell backwards with attitude things. Russell Martin had a couple good years then imploded. About the only guys they can legitimately count on right now are Kershaw (awesome) and Ethier...and Ethier was a guy they stole from Beane in a trade. The Halos could well be worse off. They got a legit guy in Weaver, but beyond that...Ervin Santana has never turned into an ace, Howie Kendrick was supposed to hit .380 every year and he seems to be barely average, their list of complete implosions is huge: Brandon Wood, Dallas McPherson, Casey Kotchman, etc. Morales is the one hitter they have who legitimately turned into a star from their system, and again, wasn't drafted (Cuban signee). The Rockies have some great guys they developed (Tulo), but where would they be without Billy Beane helping them out with a ridiculous trade? Boston just got Adrian Gonzalez handed to them by a guy who seemed more interested in helping them out than acquiring talent. I'm not sure you realize it, but in selling hard on how much you admire those systems, a careful observer might raise his hand and say "wait a second, I'm not sure they've used them as wisely as possible". I admire them for being able to develop strong farm systems while maintaining solid major league clubs. But this is exactly my point - what have these organizations managed to achieve that ours has not? I'm arguing that there is more than one way to skin a cat here, which is what I have always argued in regards to this subject matter. But what Im also saying is that I am much more impressed by the efforts of those organizations than those of one like Kansas City. That doesn't mean, however, that I think what those organizations have done is any more impressive than what ours has done.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:12 PM) Well you do the same thing when I bring up the Red Sox or Phillies, teams that find talent much later in the draft. I can't give them full credit because they spend. We could do the exact same thing. I never said the Royals were some blueprint on how to build a team. This was all about Greinke and what the Royals would probably expect. You made it into something that it really wasn't. And you say Moore is being mocked for stockpiling a loaded system? Or am I misinterpreting what you said? No, what I have said quite consistently is that developing talent is much more difficult to commit to than many around here seem to be willing to admit. I do give the Red Sox and Phillies credit for finding the right mix of dollars to field great major league teams while simultaneously staying true to their development plans. However, for every Red Sox or Phillies example there are others who have not managed to do so well going the development route, namely the two LA teams. This is not a knock on development from within as a philosophy, which is what reaction always seem to follow my comments on the subject, but rather, an argument for realism when it comes to leaning too far towards development and not enough towards utilizing spending via the marketplace. As for Moore and the Royals, google "Dayton Moore and The Process" to get an idea of what I mean.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:37 PM) That's pretty much your standard response to any team that appears to have a stocked system. "Well they spend." And? Maybe we should spend a tad more on the draft so we don't have to overpay for guys like Peavy and Rios. So we don't have to hand out 4-year deals to Scott Linebrink. So we don't have to trade for Juan Pierre. So we're not forced to bring back a declining A.J. because we have flat nothing to bring up. And I never said having a stocked system guaranteed anything. These guys can all bust. But for a team like the Royals, it's a start. I was just pointing out that Moore had a specific plan and he's executed it to this point. The Royals are looking at 2013-2014 as far as them really making their move. We shall see. For us? 2011 should be, probably won't be, a make or break year for Ozzie, KW and the entire staff. If we come up short to the Twins again then heads better f***ing roll. Enough is enough. Well, I'm sorry you feel that that is my standard response. I don't feel that way at all. I can respect teams that are developing talent from within while producing results at the major league level. I respect the Red Sox, Dodgers, Rockies, Angels, etc, for creating a balance between major league success and development. What I don't find particularly impressive is finishing at the bottom of the league for so many consecutive seasons that the sheer quantity of high draft picks have stacked on top of one another to create a strong system. I suppose it's good that the Royals see the value in paying to develop talent through the draft, but could they really do much less? I suppose they could be the Pirates, but even they are paying over-slot money now. The bottom-line is if you are a small market team with an inability to attract quality free agents, a culture of losing, and a consistent top-5 draft pick, is there any other course of action one could possibly take? You, me, or pretty much anyone here could see it's absolutely imperative to spend their revenue-sharing allotment on the high draft picks which have resulted from their horrendous major league results during Moore's entire tenure. Finally, Moore's "Plan" has been almost universally mocked amongst saber circles for his public stance of acquiring one type of player, while meanwhile acquiring the complete opposite type of player in reality.

I hate the guy who picks the middle urinal when there were three of them available.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 01:14 PM) Say what you will about his moves concerning the ML team. But he's been pretty spot-on regarding the farm and player development. The Royals have the consensus best system in the majors. If they trade Greinke, they're most likely going to get pitching back. And I doubt they would want Joba. Let's not go overboard now. He's been given a blank checkbook to draft whomever he wants with their draft picks. And of this amazing collection of talent they have in their system, not one of these kids has come up and produced anything as of yet. And the only drafted player with any acclaim thus far that has come up has been a prolific bust. This isn't to say they don't have a lot of potential in their system, because they do. But let's not pretend as though he's done anything other than use the failures of his major league club and a ton of money to build their system up.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Dec 13, 2010 -> 03:14 PM) WTF?! I was doing a search for a jacket from these guys on eBay and found this odd listing. Oh s***, I just saw this...I love how it is described ads a Halloween costume..."and you are...?" But it's a great value!

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 03:27 AM) I'm not a naysayer, I just want him to shut up and pitch. I want him to dominate and be the ace we need him to be. I want opposing teams to fear him when he comes to the mound. I want twins, yankees and red cub fans to be like "f***, PEAVY IS GOING TONIGHT" before important games down the stretch. I couldn't care less what he says. Well, it's not like he is showing up on Monday Night Raw and saying this stuff. The White Sox love his competitiveness and so they call on this inspirational stuff every now and again. But you're right...let's translate it to the field now. At least we know he's fired up to win with this team.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 18, 2010 -> 02:44 AM) I get to put on a cap and gown in 7 hours. Holy f***ing f*** Congrats Wite. Don't trip!

Like.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 10:59 PM) Crawford and AGon can't pitch, and whether Papelbon still can at this point is debatable. So I think that there is a need on Epstein's part to show people that he's "doing something" about the bullpen. I don't know if that's what's actually happening or not, but that logic makes more sense than signing Jenks over somebody like Guerrier for the same price. Fair point. But as J4L points out, there is probably a method to their madness. I'm not particularly saber-oriented, but I believe there are many that believe Guerrier has been lucky, according to his FIP, while Jenks has been unlucky. They're probably gambling on a correction.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 10:47 PM) Meh, teams make moves for all kinds of reasons. Pat Gillick is no dummy, yet he's the guy who moved two really good pitching prospects for a clearly declining (and expensive) Freddy Garcia a few years ago. I agree that Bobby will be a lot closer to a semi-decent setup man than a Linebrink-like gas can. I wish him well, and hope that he surprises me. Well considering they signed Crawford and traded for AGon, I'm not really buying that they needed to sign Jenks to excite the fans...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 11:16 PM) It left? Was I passed out during this? I guess I should clarify a bit...in the metropolitan areas of the North, Midwest, and West Coast, vodka seemed to supplant whiskey and bourbon as the hard liquor of choice. But my beloved brown liquors are rising again in popularity.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 10:30 PM) It is, but only a slight one. Bobby's WHIP was actually higher than Linebrink's last year. It shows me that Theo Epstein (1) has way too much money to play with and (2) seems more interested in placating his team's fan base and media with a recognizable veteran than acquiring somebody who is likely to put up a $6M performance in 2011. Bobby's been trending downward for the past three seasons (with his last two being below-average), and it's difficult to believe that Epstein expects to get anything near "elite" out of Jenks. I'd imagine that Epstein would be thrilled if Jenks put up a 1.27 WHIP as a setup man next year. This appears to be as much about PR as shoring up the Red Sox bullpen. No offense, but I think we should probably defer a bit to the Red Sox brain trust a bit here. You certainly may be right, but only time will tell.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 09:11 PM) Ah whiskey... Has made such a comeback recently!

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 09:46 PM) not just singling this one contract out, Hendry has some bad contracts on that team, Fukudome is only one of them Indeed.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 08:46 PM) Jeff Passan with another excellent piece on the mental retardation that is giving relievers not named Mariano Rivera multi-year deals. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Akql...erscolumn121710 I really wish we didn't have to go three years with Crain. What these GMs are faced with, however, is losing because of no relief corps, or overpaying for it. Is it acceptable to have a championship caliber team in place, other than an effective bullpen, and to not pay for it because it would be overpaying? Perhaps in a perfect world every team could develop their pen from within, but absent that, should a GM refuse to pay up? Wouldn't it be a waste of the other $100 million committed already to go into a season with an ineffective bullpen? It seems to me that this is a result of a need for some kind of certainty, even if it is based on hope or recent history, to have one's bases covered, rather than to go into the season with the prayer that the pen will take care of itself through a more efficient process.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 09:44 PM) is his new agent have a reputation of any kind? He could have changed representation for many reasons. I guess what I'm pointing out is that his goals might have changed since the NTC was bargained for.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 08:35 PM) Well that and we weren't going to play him in the position he wanted play. Either way we were a willing participant in handing out the same terms the Cubs did.

I think I might just go for the Slinger from the Diner.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 17, 2010 -> 08:04 PM) eh, at this point it would just make me remember some of the horrific contracts Hendry passed out and how he can't get out from under them. Hard to laugh at Hendry for this one considering we were right there offering the same contract basically. Just got lucky Fukudome wanted to play for a team that had never had a Japanese player before.