iamshack

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 12:32 PM) I get the impression that there's only a few types of rosters that look like they care a ton even if they're losing. A team with a lot of young players who also have good speed and make a lot of aggressive mistakes on the basepaths might still look like they care. If a bunch of 23 year olds were making the number of aggressive baserunning mistakes this team has made this year, they'd look like they cared. If a 22 year old had tried to bunt for a base hit 20 times, hey, he's trying to make stuff happen. I'm not talking about individual plays in the field as much as I am talking about responding to challenges as a team. Bouncing back and winning games you must win. Putting together a streak down the stretch. I believe we've had more talent on our rosters than our record over the last 10 years would indicate. Kenny has said he is befuddled as well. I know the Hawkeroo is. Maybe I'm just drinking the same cool-aid. But when we're talking about a lineup of Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee...losing to young Cleveland and Minny teams with rosters I can hardly even recall....I dunno..

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 12:17 PM) Steff made this comment about three or four years ago. And history has pretty much corroborated it. This is exactly my question though....are you telling me every roster we bring in doesn't care?

How can so many players on one team be so f***ing bad at once?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 12:54 PM) So, you're saying this is David Wells's fault? I think you just, whether you like it or not, sorta admitted that I'm right; this is just how teams look once things go bad. They start looking lazy. Tired. Like they don't care. What I'm saying is that since 2001, I have liked the rosters KW has put together. They have been very good teams on paper. Unfortunately, it seems as though they have all, outside of maybe 2005 and until the ASB of 2006, underperformed. Even when they were given chance after chance to get back into the thick of things because of a weak division, they laid down like lame dogs and went quietly into the night. They have lost to inferior competition year after year, despite having different rosters, different leaders, different managers, different coaching staffs. What you are stating is that all losing teams look this way - you're making a correlation between losing and looking listless - but I'm saying I think there is something else at play here. Almost as though Kenny puts together teams with a certain character to them that seems to be unable to respond to challenges or to rally the troops or to pounce on an opportunity.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:51 AM) The 2007 roster was a flat-out losing roster. D1 as a rookie. Joe Crede with a failing back that everyone knew was gone. A beaten up Scott Podsednik. Jerry Owens leadoff/LF. Terrible year from JD. Injured year from Konerko. Uribe his usual sub-.700 frustrating OPS. Aging/injured Jose Contreras. Basically a 3 man starting rotation. No depth in the minors so that guys like Andy Gonzalez were the replacements. Inexperienced bullpen and no patience with the guys in it. 2009 and 2010...the guys who have killed us have been; Carlos Quentin, Jermaine Dye, Alexei Ramirez, Gordon Beckham, Josh Fields, Gavin Floyd, Jake Peavy, Bobby Jenks. I can't say I see a serious theme amongst any of them. Dye got old. Quentin got hurt. Alexei and Floyd can't get over their early season struggles. Josh Fields's health and swing fell apart. Gordon Beckham is just awful. Jake Peavy was hurt by a line drive when we needed him last year, and hasn't found anything this year. Bobby Jenks has lost his control. Some of those could be expected, to some point, but usually, you don't expect so few positives. Again, this has been going on since at least 2001 IMO.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:41 AM) This is just how losing teams look Indeed, but I don't think the rosters Kenny has put together for the most part have been those of losing teams. So what is happening?

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 12:16 PM) Completely agree, and the older/wiser I get, the more I appreciate 2005. To me, it's guys like Konerko, Ordonez and Dye that just seem unaffected by anything going on except for what they are doing. We always seem to have this quiet professionalism about us that is fine when things are going well, but completely ineffective when things need to be shaken up or the troops need to be rallied.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:54 AM) That's about what I had him pegged for. But since many others seemed to think he was a can't miss super stud, they probably could have gotten quite a return for him if they traded him this offseason. I still think he'll reach his potential and have a nice career, but he's never going to be a hall-of -famer. Well, if you want to get an idea of the ridiculous expectations placed on the kid, just re-read that last sentence. The kid is 23.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:50 AM) Just shaking his head saying "wow". Looked like he saw a ghost. I can understand what happened...their were two many legs and feet converging at one time. When I saw it for the first time, I couldn't tell who was stepping on the bag when. I blame stupid Cabrera. If he would have just let the 2b take that ball and covered the base, it would have been a simple play.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:46 AM) So we have an entire team full of players that need a psychologist? That's basically what Walker said. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am very cautious about unloading all of our players before making the obvious changes in firing Ozzie and Walker. Well, you're a long-time fan, just as I am. This is something that has seemingly plagued us since well-before Ozzie and Walk got here. The 2001-2004 teams experienced the same kind of lacksidasical, underperforming attitude that some of these teams have under Ozzie. Maybe it's the way Kenny builds teams, I don't know. I always love his teams on paper but they rarely seem to have a fire about them to where they actually outperform their talent. 2005 was obviously the exception. We always seem to be losing games we should be winning.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:39 AM) My new favorite part of the Galarraga close play at first is the reaction of the Indians trainer in the dugout. MLB Network is replaying that game tomorrow, and they keep showing clips of it. The guy's reaction is priceless. What did he do?

QUOTE (WilliamTell @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:45 AM) I'm usually for trading prospects for proven stars. For some reason I wasn't like that with Beckham, whoops. I wouldn't sleep on Gordo...I think this will eventually be very good for his development as a player.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:36 AM) Well, according to Walker, both Quentin and Beckham are playing extremely tight. Walker said all the players are dealing with such anxiety on the field. Isn't Ozzie responsible for setting a good environment where these players have fun? One of the pro-Ozzie arguments was always that he was a good motivator and created a loose environment, but that's obviously not taking place this season. That's taking place because they flat-out suck and never win. It doesn't matter what Ozzie says. They are adults, and they know that in the real world, when you don't perform at your job, bad s*** happens. If you can't stay loose under Ozzie, who has repeatedly put them on the lineup card and does everything he can to be the story instead of his players, then I don't know who you can play for. The facts are the facts...no matter how much Ozzie tries to tell them to relax, the buck eventually stops somewhere, and they are fully aware of that. That's what's making them tight, not the clubhouse atmosphere.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:38 AM) I'd go with this lineup and hope for the best: Pierre/Beckham/Rios/Konerko/Quentin/Kotsay/Ramirez/AJP/Vizquel We're never going to be good unless Beckham can hit at the top of the order and Quentin can bat in the 3-4-5 range, so might as well stick them there and hope they snap out of it. No point in batting them lower in the order, and then worry about the mental aspect if you try and put them higher up again. Well I wouldn't have anything against that lineup either, but we went through game after game with a similar lineup and it produced very little. Everyone called for Beckham to move down in the order.

QUOTE (Drew @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:36 AM) Byfuglien needs to be a healthy scratch tonight. In four games he has been completely ineffective against Pronger, who he should be able to pound on because he's got 40 pounds on him. The main thing is that Comcast owns Versus, is negotiating a deal to buy NBC, and also owns the Flyers. I think that's all you need to know about the lopsided officiating and why Pronger has any fewer than 30 PIM in the Finals, why Hartnell didn't get called for leg-whipping Versteeg in Game 3 and punching him in the back of the head in front of the linesman (Steeger's helmet came off, for God's sake), and the Hawks getting a bench warning for Madden questioning a call early in Game 4. There is relaxing the calls on slot play to let the teams fight it out, but that argument only works if the calls are being equally enforced, which they're not. The calls in the last two games without question favored the Flyers, and as the games go on it is only getting more obvious. It seemed as though the calls in game 1 were pretty one-sided as well. Not sure I buy into all the conspiracy theories, but it is interesting nonetheless.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:31 AM) You know what's more important that calling up prospects right now? Getting a new manager and hitting coach in place to see if they can have a positive impact on guys like Quentin and Beckham. I don't know how you can fault the way Ozzie has handled either of them. They've both gotten EVERY opportunity to play even though they have both been big buckets of suck all year. They seemed to do just fine with Ozzie as their manager when they were hitting well, so I don't see how he has anything to do with this. Walker on the other hand, I don't care if they fire him or not. I don't know enough about hitting professionally to know if anyone else would make a difference or not.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:29 AM) If Flowers gets back on track, call him up, but calling him up now would be like sending Lindsay Lohan into a room filled with vodka and cocaine. There would be nothing to evaluate. You already know the result. Well I'm not saying bring these guys up now. I'm saying bring them up in late July. And I don't care who they bring up...whatever guys are the most ready, bring them up. That's all I'm saying.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:16 AM) How about someone new, anyone new? People who have yet to have been put in both of these holes, and proven they CAN'T hit there. So, Kotsay goes in there and repeatedly fails, and we should what? Leave him there? Just because we have six others dudes, who are just as bad? At this point, we're looking at upside. If one of these guys turns it around, who do you want it to be and where do you want him to be hitting? Just put the guys who should be hitting in a lineup that gives them a chance to get the most at-bats and see what happens. Pierre, Ramirez, Rios, Konerko, Q, Jones, AJ, Nix/Vizquel, Beckham I would agree with you, except for the fact that poor Ozzie has tried everything. I just don't see the point in complaining anymore. How many PAs from Quentin do we need to see before we realize he is just not hitting right now? Andruw Jones has 1 hit in his last 25 PAs or something. Alexei has been hitting, but Omar is better at handling the bat and fits in the 2nd slot better. If you're going to bother putting him in the lineup, 2nd is probably the best spot for him. You say someone new, but they only have 13 or 14 hitters on the roster. Everyone has been tried basically everywhere at this point and failed.

Ok, so you two are advocating we don't bring anyone up and just play out the second half of a terrible season with the same guys that are failing now. What the hell does that accomplish?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:07 AM) Why do you want to watch Flowers and Danks strike out so much? That is what they are doing and what they will do if called up in July. Because we will most likely be 48-66 at that point, so we may as well use the opportunity to evaluate our kids a bit. You'd rather watch Donny Lucy and Ramon Castro?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:03 AM) The problem with Ramirez is he's a stupid baseball player. When you build a team around pitching, a low baseball IQ at SS isn't wise. I think "stupid baseball player" is a bit of an overstatement....airhead or space cadet, maybe...but he makes up for a lot of that with his athleticism. Do you really believe that negative outweighs all the positives he brings?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:00 AM) Santos is starting to get hit around a little bit, and it could be others have a scouting report. As I said, he's a guy I would look to trade, but I wouldn't give up unless I was getting back a pretty useful part. I think the guy needs to pitch. Its a total catch 22 with him. You don't want to over extend him because he hasn't really pitched before. You don't want to put him into situations where he's in over his head, because it may shatter him. He seems to be known as the future closer, but I don't know how anyone can assume that right now. We don't know if he can handle the workload or the pressure that comes with it. We know he throws hard and has some nasty secondary pitches. Whether or not he can execute them with the game on the line against hitters who will be more familiar with him is a huge question. Well, this season should be perfect for us to find out then, since it's basically a lost year...hopefully once we get to late July or so we'll be able to use the rest of the games to see what some of these kids can do (Flowers/Hudson/Santos/Danks2, etc)

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:58 AM) Ramirez has had nearly an 800 OPS since May 1st. How many SS's can you find with that ability at such a cheap price as his contract currently pays him? I think the list there is basically to be counted on a single hand, and none of those players are available for anything less than a Gordon Beckham or J. Danks or Thornton. Just wait until Escobar is doing his Esteban Beltre/Caruso impression and you'll see what I mean. Yeah, I agree....because of the position Alexei plays, as well as his relatively low pricetag, I just don't think he's going to be dealt unless a team offers a very close SS prospect in return for him. And I don't think Alexei merits that kind of return.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:56 AM) Vizquel at 2 and Kotsay at 5. Ozzie just doesn't care anymore. I keep seeing comments like this, but WHO ELSE IS HE SUPPOSED TO PUT THERE?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:42 AM) Santos is a guy I would think about trading. His is a nice story, but its hard for me to believe he's not going to eventually struggle with his lack of experience, not that he wouldn't be able to eventually overcome the struggles, but he has no options left and he'd never clear waivers. See, Santos is a case where I think we need to gamble and win, if we are going to make a run at being competitive in the near future. We're going to need guys like him to step up and provide high-level performance at low-cost because of the amount of $ we have locked up in veteran players. Besides, due to his lack of experience, I am not sure what kind of return you're going to get on a guy from a team looking to add an arm for high-leverage playoff situations.