Jenksismyhero

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 09:41 AM) You're trying to justify assuming a random young black male is likely to be a criminal because they're a random young black male. I'd say you need to get over your explicit racism more than I need to get over "white guilt," which is just a dumb concept racists use as a shield when they're called out for being racist. Now consider how many people share your views and then tell me that systemic racism isn't a real force in this country. That Henry Louis Gates didn't suffer from the exact same form of racism when it was assumed he was a criminal because he was trying to get into his own home. That millions of other young black men don't suffer from the same prejudices and bigotry. You can keep ignoring the context to make your point but I won't.

BTW, can we all agree that Martin was also a dirty racist? I mean, he called a hispanic guy a cracker...

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 08:11 AM) Yes, this is. Full stop. Assuming that any random young black male is probably a criminal because there was a couple of break-ins over the past year is blatantly racist. I'm happily a racist in that scenario. IIRC, the neighborhood didn't have many blacks in it and Zimmerman had never seen Martin before. You just need to get over your white guilt.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 08:29 AM) Judging from the early social media reports, I am so happy with my decision to not head down to the parade. And it sounds like the average Blackhawk fan is a 19 year old girl. Oh man, my train sucked this morning. Teenagers everywhere. They're loud and don't understand that if you stop in the middle of a crowded union station people can't get past. Just the worst. I am officially an old geezer.

Alright, semantics I guess. It's not like he was running after Martin, which is what i thought you were implying.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 05:13 PM) A strange person following me for a period of 15-20 minutes (followed by getting out of the car and chasing me on foot) is pretty darn good reason to overreact and feel threatened. Shame he didn't have a gun. Did he really chase after him? I don't remember hearing that. And hey, if you feel threatened keep walking home. Call the cops yourself. But I don't think he was threatened given what he supposedly told his friend on the phone about the cracka following him.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 05:03 PM) People are allowed to be racist and wrong. No one dies from a person being racist and wrong. People die when people with guns are racist and wrong. Or when people beat the s*** out of the wrong person!

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 05:02 PM) Assuming a random young black male is probably a criminal is straight-up racist and wrong. Calling the police because you see a young black male is racist and wrong. Getting out of your car with a gun and chasing down a young black male because you think he's probably a criminal, though you've seen him do nothing wrong at all, is racist and wrong. Well i'm a big ol' racist because I would have done the exact same thing if this happened in my neighborhood and crime wasn't being addressed. And I love the characterization of "chasing" him down. He tailed the guy. Why do you guys keep phrasing this as if Zimmerman went to make a citizens arrest with a gun?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 05:00 PM) Martin was walking home minding his own business. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman doesn't prejudicially assume that this young black male is just another one of those "assholes" who "always get away" and is likely a criminal. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman, after calling the police, remains in his car. This situation doesn't exist if Zimmerman, after exiting his car with his gun, realizes that this situation is quickly escalating beyond what it needs to and gets back in his car. Even if Martin jumped the guy that had been stalking him through the neighborhood, Zimmerman still made many errors in judgement to get them both to that point. People follow people all the time for a variety of reasons. If I overreact and start beating the s*** out of them for following me, they have every right to defend themselves.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:57 PM) Yeah, pretty terrible to assume that young black male is likely to be a criminal, call the police on him, pursue him on foot, and end up killing him because you made one colossal error in judgement after another. Yeah I still don't see anything wrong with any of that. Not smart, but not wrong either.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:57 PM) Damn right, that kid should have known better than to...walk home. Or overreact to someone that was following him?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:57 PM) And this is the problem and why it should be the defense burden to prove that the killing is justified. Otherwise I can create dangerous situations to murder people and make the prosecution have to prove that I wasnt in danger/justified, which is pretty difficult. He's not using the SYG law though right? He's just using self-defense as his defense. That's still his burden to prove the killing was justified.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:48 PM) Based on the fact that he wound up dead, I think it is a very good guess that his life was in danger. Even if he was the one that created the danger?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:44 PM) And similarly, it's a shame that the 17 year old kid wasn't carrying a gun, because clearly his life was in danger from the strange guy in the truck stalking him on the way home. That's how we should deal with any suspicious person. Whoever shoots first wins. Based on what? Do you really think this was a cold-blooded killing?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:36 PM) lol, this is exactly why Zimmerman is a s***head. Yeah, how terrible to be active about what's going on in your neighborhood instead of reactive.

QUOTE (pettie4sox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:30 PM) I see. I guess with all that adrenaline pumping, I thought he'd be in a bit more shock and do something more erratic. To show that much poise in that situation shows a lot about Zimmerman. The problem is we don't know what happened. And unlike Balta, I refuse to find Zimmerman guilty when we don't know if Martin turned around and just started beating the living s*** out of Zimmerman just for getting close to him. This is perfectly reasonable scenario: (1) there's been lots of crime in his neighborhood committed by black teens that the cops weren't doing anything to prevent or change. (2) Zimmerman becomes much more active in his community/neighborhood watch (3) Zimmerman sees a black teen in the neighborhood (4) Racially motivated or not, he decides to tail him just to make sure (5) Zimmerman gets too close for Martin's comfort, Martin freaks out and instead of telling the Zimmerman to leave him alone, he starts to beat the crap out of Zimmerman with little to no warning. (6) as Zimmerman's head is being pounded into the curb, he legitimately fears his life is in danger and he pulls out his gun and shoots martin to prevent being killed himself. An unfortunate circumstance, but nothing illegal. IF that's what happened, and i'm Zimmerman, and i'm incredibly thankful I was carrying a gun that day.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 04:20 PM) No that was that other dude in Florida a few months later. Zimmerman was somebody who thought himself an enforcer of the law and was sick of seeing these "assholes" get away. He said that three days later knowing that Trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong when Zimmerman decided to report him to the police and then arm himself to follow after him. He wasn't doing anything wrong at the time, but how do you know he wasn't about to do something wrong? It's clearly not a smart move by Zimmerman and in a perfect world he goes home and calls the cops to deal with it. But I don't think him going after Martin was wrong or illegal. Stupid, probably, but not wrong. Edit: and I don't know why you would describe him as an "enforcer" of the law. You don't think it's reasonable that he wanted to tail Martin just to make sure he didn't do anything? Or that he wanted to ask him what he was doing? Following up on a suspicious is not enforcing the law.

QUOTE (pettie4sox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 03:49 PM) OK so TM is bashing his head into the curb, how does he get the shot off and one at that! If you fear for your life, aren't you emptying the clip? Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Sorry, I didn't see this. I don't think it's all that difficult to see what happened. Martin is on top of Zimmerman punching at him. Eventually Martin gets enough leverage to drop Zimmerman's head against the curb and Zimmerman has enough time/space to pull out the gun and shoot him in the chest. I'm sure after one shot Martin was dead or close to dead instantly so there was no need for multiple shots.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 02:34 PM) So, history suggests that there will be at least three All-Stars to come out of this draft. Every draft between 1953 and 2009 (it's kind of early for the last three classes) has had at least three All-Stars. Yes, even 2000, though Michael Redd, Kenyon Martin and Jamal Magloire each only made one. So, who you got from this class? I'm probably going to look stupid down the road, but here are my thoughts... Nerlens Noel and Ben McLemore are the closest things to good bets that this draft has. IF Noel is healthy, his length and athleticism combined with the relatively low bar for centers makes him a decent bet to make it. McLemore has the athleticism and outside shooting to get there, the only real question is his ability to get his own shot. His chances would improve greatly if he winds up with an upper-tier PG. Of the rest of the "elite prospects", Anthony Bennett, Alex Len and Michael Carter-Williams all look the part. However, I don't think they'll reach that level due to some combination of deficient skills, lack of effort and/or trouble finding a niche in the NBA. I don't think Victor Oladipo has the offensive skillset to get there and Otto Porter and Trey Burke are a little lacking athletically to reach that ceiling. If I had to pick one of those three, it would be Oladipo with the assumption that he somehow reaches the mid to high teens in points. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Cody Zeller makes an All-Star team. There aren't a ton of big men that can score right now and that's something he has the potential to do. Obviously his strength and physicality are an issue, but there are fewer players that can really punish him than there used to be at the position. Of the non-lottery locks, I think Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has a shot. He's not quite as gifted athletically or from outside as McLemore, but he has a somewhat similar game. He has some upside if he improves his shot selection. Jamaal Franklin could also surprise some people if he improves his jumper. I don't know a ton about them, but Lucas Nogueira and Dennis Schroeder seem like the kind of guys the Spurs would draft-and-stash and are suddenly valuable pieces in three years. It's too bad Shane Larkin is only 5'11". I think he'd be a stud if he were 2-3 inches taller.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 03:55 PM) But Martin was presumed guilty upon sight and wound up dead as a consequence. That means something is broken. Your standard didn't get applied to the dead kid. This is crap.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 03:51 PM) Maybe random vigilante-wannabees shouldn't be allowed to drive around with guns stalking people. I get the outrage, but I'm not entirely unsympathetic to Zimmerman. This isn't a guy that shoots up a car full of black teens because of an irrational fear that they might do something.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 12:20 PM) Jenks: Not sure if you read Team of Rivals by Goodwin (the book Lincoln the movie was based on), but she provides a lot of evidence of the following: (1) Lincoln believed that the Constitution protected salvery in the South but that the Founders intended for slavery to remain confined to the South and would ultimately be extinguished on its own accord; and (2) that Lincoln was a supporter of the Black Laws which indicated that blacks could not sit on juries, etc. Goodwin explained that Lincoln's beliefs on the relative inferiority of one race to the other was the mainstream view in the 1850s. Moving this to contemporary times, I think it's the mark of an effective leader if someone can say, "I was wrong" about a belief in the past. I understand that's not what some politicians who voted for DOMA said, but the ability to change your position is a good trait in a leader. Additionally, it's pretty ridiculous to ignore the societal shift on gay marriage since DOMA was passed. Look at the characterization of gay characters in popular culture just in the last decade... it is not in the least bit unreasonable that politicians would have actually changed their stance on the issue in the last 17 years. Yep, that's the main book I read about Lincoln recently. Btw, here's a bunch of his writings from as early as aged 28 regarding his views of slavery: http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/slavery.htm Yes, he was a "realist" and knew abolishing slavery outright wasn't feasible and he had to move politically over the years to get it done. But that's not the same as voting for an act legalizing slavery only to then praise that it was unconstitutional less then 2 decades later. That's what these guys are doing. And there's an absolute difference between my personal opinion (or the nation's collective opinion) and my willingness to subject others to a policy that I favor or disfavor. These guys knew exactly what they were voting for and I don't believe for a second that any of them actually changed their minds. It was politically advantageous to do so. They pretend like they've been the leading representatives for freedom and equality. And clearly some people are eating that crap up just because they like the outcome.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 03:34 PM) Well, I have a problem with the unarmed kid who died for no reason no matter what the current law says. Maybe he shouldn't have bashed Zimmerman's head against a curb?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 27, 2013 -> 02:48 PM) I can't read my own handwriting sometimes. I'm writing some reports right now using field notes I took. I'm glad I have pictures to reference to know wtf I wrote in a few spots. Notes are one thing, I'm sloppy with my handwriting on notes too. But if you were writing a personal letter to someone don't you think it would be legible? She later admitted that she didn't write it. It's possible the jury looks past her and focuses only on what she claims Martin told her, but so far she has been a very bad star witness for the prosecution. As for the defense, the lawyer seems to be doing ok in the few video clips i've seen. Sometimes those attorneys have the body language and tone of "this is utterly ridiculous" which comes off in their questioning. That puts the whole cross examination in a context when the jurors are watching. If the witness slips up you mentally start to think the story is bogus. Tough to explain, but I've seen it happen to jurors before. I'm sure that's part of his tactic.

Also, the star witness was pretty entertaining. I have to imagine her credibility was shot with all of the changes in her statements and the fact that she couldn't read something she claimed to have written herself.